User talk:CompleCCity

"Are you talking to me? Are YOU talking to ME?"

- Marl

Ike's opinion
Three things to consider:

The BGEE symbol isn’t very distinguishable from classic BG symbol, or ToB, they’re similar skull style. (btw the BGIIEE icon you used should stand for classic SoA instead)

How large the symbols will be? From the samples you made, they’re a bit small (especially for tablet users), but will the larger ones fit well into IB?

Don’t forget our old friends: BGIIEE:SoA, BGIIEE:ToB, how to separate those campaigns with icons?

I guess this game is a very special case compared to other game series which can easily be transferred into icons, it’s only getting more complicated after EEs were introduced.

Islandking&#9812;♕&#9817; 10:15, October 27, 2017 (UTC)

Faalagorn's opinion
I actually like the icons! They are more clearer for me, especially when grouped together near each oher, easier to read than existing text. The size is easily tweakable, as MediaWiki handles resizing the images. The tooltips are still labeled BG:EE and so on, so it should be clear, and if someone blocks the images (globally on browser or via some ad-blocker rule), the alt text should display + the link still points to the same attributes. There may indeed be confusion about the vanilla and EE editions, though all the campaigns did get an unique icon – including both Black Pits. For mobile, there is actually a more severe issue with the existing et. al. templates – they are incorrectly parsed and when I tried to access for example the companions page on my phone, it is showing an extra newlines in and after the template, each time the template is used. I can attach a screenshot later on. Seeing we never got any report about this bug here though, may mean we don't have much mobile views anyway, at least among the contributors :). Also, it should be kept in mind that icons are often used in such places, be it other wikis or our  template.

P.S. Since I was AWOL for the past few weeks or so, I never had occasion to welcome you CompleCCity; welcome on board, nice to have new editors in here :). It may take me a while to take a look of what has changed here, and I'm currently having a break from playing BG:EE (planning to return soon-ish though), so feel free to point me on things if some kind of opinion is needed from my side in the meantime!

—Faalagorn☎/✓ 15:45, October 27, 2017 (UTC)

Ike's opinion (2)
Some candidates I’ve extracted from NI:

Update:

1,  And you can extract classic icons without glow for classic campaigns, icons should be around LOGOXX.bam

2, 3,

4,

2, We also need to cover cases such as Wand of Frost, where "BG" there actually stands for BGTotSCBGEESoDBP, "BGII" stands for BGIIToBBGIIEEBPII. We might need customized some icons here, ideas?

3, Also need to consider pages with different content between pre-EE and EE, like Poison Weapon, not a good example but that’s the gist, and many spells function differently in between versions. If you have the skills in image editing, you can cut the lower portion which contains Enhanced Edition in

and make it into icon to stand for EE. For classic versions, might crop Baldur’s Gate from

. Or you have better substitutes ?

Islandking&#9812;♕&#9817; 05:37, October 28, 2017 (UTC)

cCC's opinion
Thanks for the welcome, Faalagorn! And feel welcome yourself on my talk page!

Actually I intended to answer right after you, but then came Ike – and presented stuff to work with already, despite having so many concerns … :)

Let me tell you, I share these concerns. But I also think, there are ways to evade them.

The size I used in my examples on your talk pages (see User talk:Islandking or User talk:Faalagorn) is 14px, which – for a circular icon – would mirror the regular font size in height and width, though reduced per  to (I think) 80%. Have in mind that this is the width of the icon – non-circular ones, like the one used for BGII:EE, have then a larger height than 14 pixels.
 * About icon size

Surely we can use 16px instead, or even more – that depends on how distinguishable the icons are in the end.

I took my examples from those icons used in the userbox templates. You find a good overview of them on Buttercheese's user profile.
 * About icon choice

In the classic games' files there unfortunately is no LOGO*.bam, but they are contained in other files (can't recall the exact name right now). I've already extracted the one from BG, which is smaller than some already upped icon here, but I think that one is scaled. For TotSC there is no official and unique icon, we have to use the one from the official guide (already used in the userbox).

Which leads us to …

A note to Faalagorn: I only can speak from a classic point of view – I don't own the enhanced editions, yet.
 * About differences between games and add-ons, and abbreviations

Okay, we have BG and TotSC, and for certain things we have to distinguish between them. Also we have SoA and ToB, and have to distinguish between them. There's no need of discussion about SoD, BP1 and BP2. But: Do we have to distinguish between BG:EE and TotSC:EE? And are there any differences between SoA:EE and ToB:EE? Or could those simply be summarized as BG(2):EE? To elaborate this further: if an item only appears in TotSC, does it then generally appear in BG:EE? If a creature only appears in ToB, does it then appear in the general BGII:EE? Or only in ToB:EE? (Is there still a choice between both campaigns when starting the game?)

A list, a row of icons looks better than that listing of letters in your second topic, Ike. ;)

In general we should keep away from this. Customizing copyrighted images from the game files might break copyright laws (not sure about this), and also might lead to contributors thinking "ah, that's not the original file, I have to re-up this …"
 * About icon customization

But chosing the icon from a game guide already is some sort of customization. And altering satuation, brightness and contrast of the cBG and BG:EE icons might be necessary to make them more distinguishable. Perhaps the same for SoA and SoA:EE …

(Yes, the glow should be removed as well …)

So much about my thoughts, yet. Will come back to this later …

I'm not sure, I've understood your third topic, Ike. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:59, October 28, 2017 (UTC)

A quick reply from Ike
We don’t have to separate BGEE and BGEE:TotSC because the content are merged together and can be freely accessed anytime in BGEE. (eg. From Nashkel to Durlag Tower)

However we have to separate SoA, ToB, BGIIEE:SoA, BGIIEE:ToB because as already mentioned, these campaigns are NOT transferable, which is different from the above case (take a look at some "Items in XXX" categories)

No, I’d insist keeping EE icons glow and classic icons not glow because that’s the way to distinguish them. Eg. classic SoA’d be the same as BGIIEE:SoA just without glow, etc. Also as you might’ve noticed, BGEE ones are glowing red while BGIIEE are yellow, which are the additional ways to show differences in visual.

Islandking&#9812;♕&#9817; 11:34, October 28, 2017 (UTC)

Update (1) from Ike
My friend has helped me made some desired icons, all are cropped from NI extracted files. I’ve updated the tables above to reflect some changes, what’s left are classic icons.

A side note: once icons replace the texts, we’ll have to use BGII:SoA+BGII:ToB, two icons to stand for classic BGII; BGIIEE:SoA+BGIIEE:ToB both to stand for BGIIEE. But I guess that’s the same way as BGEE+BG:SoD, and SoD is actually a part of BGEE, if you consider BGEE as BGIIEE:SoA, then BG:SoD is its BGIIEE:ToB. Now it makes me hungry for a real expansion to BGIIEE which tells us what happens after the throne battle, there’s already a mod for it :-)

Islandking&#9812;♕&#9817; 03:15, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Just a note
I'm working on the classic icons, but as there's no LOGO.bam it takes some time to find the best one … -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:03, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Re: … now in person.
Yea no worries.

I'm new to this wiki editing thing, but since I like it a lot I thought I might as well contribute with some images on this playthorough :)

As for adding other minor missing things, do you have some good "template pages" to check how stuff should be formatted?

It seems many pages have their own style in formats etc.

(not sure im doing this talk page correct either, learning by doing, right? :)

Henkoba (talk) 12:07, July 6, 2018 (UTC)

Edit undone
about that victor ring, you could've put that item code there instead of deleted lol Joeyliciouz (talk) 09:01, July 18, 2018 (UTC)

Question
Because you're an admin here. You have the POWAA! :)

I don't feel like having a certain admin get pissy with me on another wiki. See recent edits on my talk page.

I look to you as a person with a great deal more experience with coding than myself. You understand the rules and consequences of how different styles of coding impact wiki. You know the right "terms".

Can you explain to me the justification for and for not removing redirect links inside an article? Other than just personal preference.
 * 1. In my understanding, you create an article. Something causes changes to the name. I'd rather not go and change a hundred places to the new name. I use a redirect to the new name. I can use the new name or I can use the old name and both point to the correct location.
 * 2. Common other spellings, confusing page names, or other locations can be pointed to the correct page. The little brown mouse points to the correct location missions page - subheader The little brown mouse.
 * 3. Rather than type out a huge link to a page, I can use a redirect to make my coding simple. Instead of typing The quick brown fox jumps mission/Sub-Mission/additional sub-mission/typing stuff to make this really long/and even longer I can type Brown Fox which redirects to the correct location.

To me it just seems to be personal preference or potentially a specific wiki rule that was enacted. "We always use shortened links of two words with a redirect because it makes coding much simpler looking. No need to type and make large mistakes." No such rule has ever been mentioned or pointed to.

Telling me "Redirects exist for a reason" and then not stating that reason is stupid and frustrating. There is no point in even asking for clarification. I've been down this road. It looks exactly like this is personal preference of a certain admin. Trouble is, that if that's an unofficial rule, it isn't even being used consistently. I find places with redirects, places without redirects, places with both, etc.

It's just lazy to me to not correct mistakes and/or make changes as you find them. You are already there making changes, fix them as you find them. I find a redirect that ISN'T being used consistently so I correct it. If it piques my curiosity, I'll see where else this happens and correct all locations. I didn't make the problem, but I'll make sure it's fixed in all places. I now know that it isn't a problem anymore for anyone else ever and I can sleep at night happy. :)

Heck, if I created the problem in the first place, then I should go out and make the 500 changes to the new name and get rid of the redirect. I can use the redirect as a stop gap until I can fix them. Or perhaps, I don't create a redirect because I have though of another solution. Or I ask an admin to change the name without a redirect. So many possibilities...

Can you shred some link on redirects for me? Thanks for your help. --GS877 (talk) 20:16, July 23, 2018 (UTC)

Hi. And feel personally welcome, as well! (In addition to that bot message with my name.) :)

On this wiki it's common to reply on the other user's talk page, but I prefer to keep one discussion on one page – easier to follow. It's also common to use lines instead of indentation to separate single comments, as you see. ;) (By the way: easier to write the comment, if one not always has to think of the colons.) Don't care about the sections above – have to clean up this mess, anyway.

I shall "shred" you some link? Uhm, not sure if I understand you right, here … You don't seem as a person not confidant with the internet to me, so you might probably find the Wikia's help for redirects on your own. I'm sure, Wikipedia has something similar. You could also look at MediaWiki, though Wikia's version of it is outdated.

I won't go searching the MEW guides now for something regarding redirects, but at least I can say that it's the first time for me to see something like that notice on this template.

I haven't "studied" redirect handling. I usually edit wikis using good sense, not hour-long reading of guidelines. In most cases, they contain the same things, anyway. (MEW, however, is a little different. ;) )

Okay, my non-scholar common sense understanding of redirects, based on editing on at least 35 wikis since 2011 and being admin on 4 since years: As said, this is my understanding of redirects. If you go into research, you might find that I'm wrong with some things, or at least in the minority, even out-of-date.
 * 1) You're wrong. Good practice would be to change every link after a page move to the new name. The redirect (admins, by the way, can suppress the creation of a redirect when doing a move) will practically become useless after this. If it's too much, there are tools and bots for such things. Standard practice for me: 1) move a page/file; 2) edit every link to the former one. And personally I don't appreciate people on "my" wikis who do not do this.
 * 2) "The little brown mouse"? Uhm … *confused* Valid redirects:
 * 3) singular variants of page names that – as an overview page – use plural (local (bad) example: Class; unfortunately there's really much to do on this wiki);
 * 4) plural variants of page names that cannot simply be constructed by adding a plural-s at the end of a link (example: Dwarves should be a redirect to Dwarf);
 * 5) your "common other spellings", common other names, expected names, commonly confused things, and such;
 * 6) if the former name of a moved article was justified and will be searched for by people, then the redirect has to be kept;
 * 7) single items that in the future might get an own article, but for now are only collected on an overview page (a good local example would be every single status effect, but those haven't been created yet – neither as complete article, nor as redirect; my, so much to do here);
 * 8) these might be kept if one day it's decided to not make single articles for them;
 * 9) there certainly are some more …

Most of the above redirects are for the convenience of the irregular contributor to a wiki. Into that category has your #3 to be counted as well. Random visitors don't know of a page move, or if the exact link of what they're looking for hides under a subsection's subsection. They type "dwarves" because they don't know that the article uses singular. And similar reasons.

The contributor familiar with a certan wiki, however, may indeed use the direct links, even go "fixing" them where redirects are used.

Unless it's not the "for now a redirect, complete article perhaps later" type. Because then it would double the work: switching the redirect now directly to the overview page's subsection, only to switch it back later, when the article has been created? No …

I guess, your recent changes belong to the latter category. If it's an item/location/creature/character/etc. directly from the game, use the item/etc. name for it, not an overview page's subsection. I can't tell, however, if that's the same reason somebody else had in mind. ;) Do you think I would become a satisfying answer if I asked why my edit on the stub template was reverted? I doubt it. So, I will think twice before spending time, effort and motivation on that wiki – can quickly become de-motivating.

What I can tell about those weapon mods redirects: the page is that large, that section linking doesn't work correctly. I always have to scroll down some headings until the destination's reached. No matter if I use the re- or your direct link.

Hm, guess this isn't exactly what you expected. I mostly gave you some personal view on redirects, and told next to nothing about the actual events. Your concerns. Sorry. Wanted to reply, but am a bit tired. (It's half past one in the morning for me.) Maybe I'll revisit this tomorrow and add something.

Another thing: I think I'm not half experienced as you think when it comes to coding and such. I know some things, but e.g. writing a completely new template – hours! Fixing that armor infoboxes table: several attempts, still contains some redundant code, and yet doesn't please my eyes. So, no … ;) I'm perhaps a bit friendlier than other persons, though. :D And I give replies and explanations.

And: I completely support your point of view on that SW, just hadn't anything useful to add to the debate. And personally I perhaps would act indeed a little more renegade on that, but I also didn't have the pleasure of a debate with some wikia staff, yet.

'til tomorrow or so. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 23:46, July 23, 2018 (UTC)

Hey CompleCCity,

I was trying to write down thoughts without having the correct terms in a flurry of emotions. My mind flows onto the page, words and thoughts mix together, and items are changed out on accident. I fixed the "Shred some links" to what I really meant - Shed some light. :)

These are a little bit out of order. My mind was flowing... :)

Item #2. The little brown mouse. Just a throw away phrase for an example. I could have put anything. I was trying to do an example link. I should have done what you did for the dwarf / dwarves.

I create a page called The Little Brown Mouse mission. I decide that I'm going to instead make a dedicated Missions page and list the missions with sub-headers. I create a sub-header Missions. However, as I am not an admin, I can't delete a page and/or I can't rename a page WITHOUT a redirect. I decide instead to move all content to the mission subheader location, remove the text from The Little Brown Mouse, and replace that text with the following redirect #REDIRECTMissions.

I do this because as you stated, not everyone will know to go to the Missions page. Some will search for The Little Brown Mouse instead and the redirect will point to the correct location on the page.

Item #1. I am TOTALLY in agreement with what you said. I was only stating that you had the option to leave a redirect so that you wouldn't have to do the work. I think it is lazy and bad form to not do the job the right way. I made the change, I should understand the ramifications, I should make all of the fixes. If it is going to be 1,000 fixes, perhaps before I make the change using a redirect, I should understand am I making the best choice.

I got hit hard for going back and changing/removing links that pointed to redirects on pages. I put the correct location for the link. Someone else in the past instead of doing the correct edits and fixing the links, instead left the links pointing to the redirects. To use my example, every place that The Little Brown Mouse is used should be changed to Missions. I can used special:whatlinkshere to find all of the places that use the redirect and correct them all.

I found problems with links that weren't there, links that were broken, incorrect links, etc NOT involving the redirect links. I just fixed those redirect links as I was already there fixing problems. NO! YOU CAN'T DO THAT! REDIRECTS ARE USED FOR A REASON. (Um, yes I know that. I'm fixing a redirect that is being used poorly.) NO! You are DOING IT WRONG. (Um again, no, there are multiple uses for redirect. I'm just doing a best practices and methods. There is no "right". Just degrees of better or worse.) NO! YOU ARE WRONG. (fine. moving on.)

Of the 6 sub-items you've listed for Item #2, I've worked with all of them/seen all of them in use. I understand each of those reasons and why each has a valid place.

Best practice is to have the correct link in use in all valid places. Mistakes do happen though. If possible, remove problems or create solutions so that the problem won't happen again.

"Hm, guess this isn't exactly what you expected." - No, you gave me exactly what I was looking for. A detailed in-depth discussion from an experienced user about redirects. Several points of view and multiple examples. Exactly what I was hoping for. I am using redirects correctly and I understand the different ways they can be used/the consequences for using in each situation.

When I condense your writing above, I get exactly my position on the subject - Redirects have a purpose. You need to think about how and why you use them. You shouldn't leave clutter and a half finished job. Do the best job you can. If you don't know the answer, you can always ask for help.

I went in to fix other peoples mess and I got my hand slapped hard for fixing obvious mistakes. Someone else did a piss poor job it bothers me to see it. Bothers me to no end. I try again a different way to fix the mistakes and again the slap but this time with a punch. Next time I try, I'll get thrown out of a 10-story window. :) I forgot, plus the slap and the punch once I reach the ground from the fall. :)

I've just given up on it. If he can live with the bad job of others, then he is the face of the wiki and he can live with the consequences. I'll finish off my edits for the fourth game and then I'm done.

- - - -

You know the terms and have years of background. I have only edited wiki's for 6 months. I had to teach myself everything by example and painful learning. I learned A WHOLE bunch but without the context and terminology, I stumble in the dark for the correct wording.

- - - -

Thank you for letting me know about the SW page. I think it should be fully staff supported and finished or get rid of it. The half done bugs me. I will say that the other admin is very reasonable and has helped me a number of times in the past. If she says that there is not much that can be done, I trust that the options are limited. There just isn't the support from enough editors to take it over. Because it is a pretty sedate wiki now, and there are few editors left, there isn't much of a popular uprising that can take place. We got three guys, two paperclips, and a dozen donuts. We will rule the WORLD! Wait, we have 11 donuts left. Kevin ate one. THANKS ALOT KEVIN! :)

- - - -

Thank you for your time and help. Sometimes it just helps to talk with a logical and complex thinking person who understands the intricate nature of wikis. There isn't always a simple answer. You have to learn and be willing to learn new ways. Not be close minded and stuck. There are multiple ways to do things and even if I think I have the best solution, someone else may have a better one. There are some pretty clever ways to do things. I learn new stuff all the time and try to apply it when applicable. --GS877 (talk) 01:22, July 24, 2018 (UTC)

Something in the water again this morning, GS877? ;)

I plan on giving you some longer response to this and the following. A reply you deserve, not as that short one I wrote when I was offline. See you. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 09:14, August 5, 2018 (UTC)

Hey CompleCCity,

Nothing in the water. Nothing at all. Pay no attention to the water. I don't see any water. What water? :)

I really dislike 2 sets of rules. REALLY DISLIKE. To the point of fervor. I let it get the best of me sometimes.

Rather than start an edit war (which is against the rules), I did what the rules state, speak to an admin. This isn't a hard call to make. Someone is making valid corrections and an admin is undoing them based on his personal preferences and not the wiki rules. Personal preferences that don't follow a cohesive set of rules. These made up personal rules in fact contradict themselves at times. Just sloppy and messy. Overly aggressive, threatening behavior, coarse language when none is needed. Acting like a petulant child. "My TOYS! MINE! YOU CAN'T TOUCH THEM!" Fine, I'll go play over here. "NO! THOSE ARE MINE TOOOO!" :)

Undoing a redirect fix just to undo a redirect fix in this case is a stupid personal preference. When 150 pages use the correct page name and 5 don't, then you fix the 5 others. What he didn't see was that I made that correction to 4 other pages that he didn't fix. He's even sloppy in his reverting. :)

I do details. That's what I do well. I dislike half finished. If I find an issue, I should fix it rather than leave it broken for someone else.

As for a longer reply from before, I "deserve" nothing. I was glad you were able to get me a response and that was enough. :) I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me about these issues. Even if we were to disagree on a subject (which we don't), you are thoughtful, concise, respectful, and detailed in your responses. You don't resort to game playing, petty behavior, or coarse language.

Thanks again for your help and kind words. I really do appreciate those people that are able to help and guide me. --GS877 (talk) 20:38, August 5, 2018 (UTC)

I swear, I'm not starting to edit here...
Hey CompleCCity,

I went to the main page and I found an error. I know, I know. Stop looking for things to fix... :)

"See the Helping out section on this page if you don't where to start editing."

I copied the sentence above from the welcome box.

There is a missing word. I'm assuming that no one saw it before because of that optical illusion your mind plays where a missing word or double word at the end of a sentence and the beginning of another sentence. Your brain just fills in the missing word or edits out the double word. Do an internet search for "A bird in the the bush illusion" to see a picture of the illusion. :)

The word "know" is missing from the sentence.

"See the Helping out section on this page if you don't know where to start editing."

As it is locked for admin fixing only, could you add the missing word? --GS877 (talk) 07:39, July 24, 2018 (UTC)


 * Oops, I almost never visit the main page ... ;)


 * Sorry, I will reduce activity and communication to a minimum, as of today I have only very restricted internet access. And editing here via phone is very inconvenient. See you next month or so. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:57, July 24, 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you CompleCCity. See you when you get back. :) --GS877 (talk) 05:51, July 25, 2018 (UTC)

Class Page Info
Looking to get a consensus here. Something I was thinking about while cleaning up the XP tables for the classes in BG2+. Since the pages for the classes are split between pre-BG2 and BG2+, I think any icons/references to games from the other page should be removed. For example, on the XP chart for BG2 version of the Ranger class, there are logos marking what the XP cap was for BG1, BG1EE, TotSC, SoD, and BP. However, I'm of the mind that since this page was specifically for BG2+ rangers, that info is effectively useless and shouldn't be there. I forgot to ask this before, but since OmniOptic was going through and making some adjustments, it sparked my memory. Do you have a preference on this? Daft inquisitor (talk) 22:01, July 26, 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm currently somewhat limited regarding extensive research on the wiki - see above and my profile.
 * If you think that information is redundant here, belongs on another page and does exist there, then feel free to make adjustments.
 * On the other hand: would there be a good way of merging BG1 and BG2 classes? This would, however, need a look into their history and why the decision was made to split them in the first place. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 20:14, July 27, 2018 (UTC)


 * That's fair. I'm reaching out to some wiki old-guard who was here during an apparent merge between this wiki, and a BG2 wiki. Seems the class splits happened due to the wiki merge. If he says there was no good reason to split them, I'll see how much trouble it would be to just merge the pages together and clean them up. Anyway, just wanted to give you a heads-up on that, no need to reply. I'll update you again as things progress. Daft inquisitor (talk) 21:41, July 27, 2018 (UTC)


 * Dutchman, I see. Might indeed react to a talk page message. But perhaps I'm back earlier than expected, too, so I can look deeper into the matter ... Anyway, make your thing! ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 17:53, July 28, 2018 (UTC)


 * Say, Inquisitor, if we redo the class pages, would there be one favored class of yours which with you would like to begin with? The inquisitor, perhaps? ;)
 * If we are to introduce a new concept for the articles, a sandbox might be a good start. I thought of creating a User:CompleCCity/Thief, but if the thief is something you'd like to do, I can choose something else. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:54, July 30, 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't really have any preferences one way or the other. I'm working on some other projects at the moment though, so it may be another few days until I get around at doing an example page merge -- trying to get some stuff sorted for real-life D&D first. :-p Daft inquisitor (talk) 04:28, August 2, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Warning
I don't respond well to threats. Have you ever met a single person who did? Bamboonga (talk) 01:19, August 12, 2018 (UTC)


 * Consider that a warning. Perhaps my tone wasn't friendly enough, I should have ended that sentence with "be respectful and polite in the future." -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:19, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

Oh Sage CompleCCity...
Oh Sage CompleCCity, speaketh the words of TRUTH AND UNDERSTANDING!

That admin on that other wiki is out of control. Absolutely out of control. Totally violating established MOS rules, just changing things that are rules of thumb, threatening to ban me for edit warring - Which I'm not doing. I'm undoing edits that violate the community rules.

Speak the words to calm this troubled soul. Before I break some shit... :)

Yes, the single curse word above is totally required and much less than the multisyllable half a paragraph of venomous bile that I want to say but the screen would melt. It really would literally melt because it is that caustic. It's such foul words...:)

Going to bed now. Before I really get worked up... --GS877 (talk) 09:19, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

I've followed that discussion – not the related edits, though.

One thing I noticed shortly before was that his manner of expression also can be found in his edit summaries, and not directly addressed at some person he might currently not like. It's his general way of making comments. Let me think … If I remember right, I have (on another wiki) undone edits by people simply for using foul language in their edit summary. I mean, you don't want to read "f***" on somebody's talk page, but in an article's history it's okay? So much for that …

Regarding your current edit-no-war (what about "Make edits, not war!" ;) and – as mentioned – with no insight into the actual matter besides what I could read from your talk pages, the "sage"'s thoughts:
 * I guess, E. will reply in an as neutral way as she did before (still have to realize her gender ;) – that's diplomatics.
 * I can understand T. to a certain extent. If on a wiki I stumble about something I don't like, I don't care about "established rules of thumb" – I change it. Usually I don't go into research if such rules exist. If then somebody tells me, that way was how it's done on countless articles, I'll respond with "then I'll gonna change it on all of them". Of course I'm open to a discussion about it.
 * Following this, I think you're a bit stressing that "rule of thumb" thing in this discussion. On the other hand, such has been topics before, in talks with T. and E. – so my point of view might be wrong, regarding that specific wiki.
 * I don't agree with your tone and wording in that latest talk with T. (Neither do I with his!) I mean, "unless you […], do not change" in the opening sentence, followed by a "I'm not here to lecture you" in a later response … "Do not change" sounds like a clear "order" to me. And of course you're not there to give an admin orders. But neither is he. You're an equal member of the community, and admins in general aren't there to give an order, only to keep it up.
 * But I completely agree with your feelings about him and that it indeed looks as his only intention is to make that his personal wiki (which, again, I can understand to a certain extent ;).

You've looked for other places to do your stuff. Perhaps it's time to leave the old one, but be aware that (I think) the community as well as the visitors count higher and are more active here on Wikia than over there. And take the opinion of B. serious – they have not much sympathy for here, and of course they don't want have stuff on their pages that was simply copied from here.

In the past (around six or seven years or so), two wikis I was a regular visitor (at that time not so much editor) of, split, and one instance left here while the new (and "official" one) moved over to there. In the beginning I then consulted both pages, followed the RCs on both platforms, even tried to apply changes to an article on one host to the article on the other. But I soon realized that that's totally inefficient and not worth the effort. So I focused on that wiki I hold for the true one. And that was not here. Later I became admin on The Vault, and then for the |Official Pillars of Eternity Wiki (though my activity nowadays mainly focuses on this wiki). But I know what I'm speaking of, being active and admin in both hemispheres. I prefer wikiing over there, but if there's an established wiki I'm currently using here and not there (as e.g. for Baldur's Gate) then I don't go and create one there.

Maybe you should make use of that invitation you got from B. You can learn interesting stuff on that platform, ask questions, help other people. There's not only a channel for (nearly) every wiki, there are also general channels or specific ones for certain topics. And of course a private messaging system. But be aware, that's a chat – so you might need to learn some brevity before. ;)

Still, usually wikis on this host generate better results on search engines and have a higher community activity – on the other hand, overall quality (and technology, coding, extensions, etc.) is better over there.

-- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 13:17, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your sage advice. I should have gone to bed. I didn't go to bed. I went back again and typed even more. I don't think I wrote anything I wouldn't usually write, I just let more of my personality come through that normally I leave out of my online presence.

I didn't have to curse to make my point. I didn't have to do anything other than state facts. That usually shuts him up because he knows he's wrong. I touched a nerve this time though and he can't defend his point with facts. He's pulling rank, being even more aggressive, and acting even more like a petulant child.

I've said what I need to say to him without devolving into pettiness. I let my work and the quality of that work speak for me. I know I did the best I could with the skills I currently have and others are thankful for the work.

Respect is earned and not given freely. You can lose respect very quickly and spend a lifetime (if ever) trying to get it back.

You've earned my respect. Thank you again for your time and insight. :) --GS877 (talk) 21:41, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

Don't know exactly, how, but thanks!

A thing about editing (not commenting!) on talk pages: I have undone your self-censoring above because this word at that place was topic in a heated debate with somebody else, whom I blocked for using the term "moron". Your edit not only left me a bit confused because I couldn't find the word he mentioned (until I restored it after I noticed your further edit here), it now has also become a corpus delicti, and as such has to be kept for at least a certain time. (May I guess that that specific debate was the reason for your edit?)
 * Edits on talk pages – everywhere

This wiki not only lacks a descriptive manual of style, but it also has only a few basic guidelines. And none whatsoever about talk pages. (Except that small comment I just inserted.) So the general ones from Community Central would apply, if there are any. I think, MEW is handling them in a similar liberal way. Well, my personal vision is much more restrictive. It is mainly based on the Dragon Age Wiki talk page guidelines, which not only give very detailed rules for all purposes, but also explain these in a very good way. Unfortunately they cannot be applied completely to this wiki, as here are no real "talk pages" for the main namespace anymore, only comments' sections that are a source of … well, "heated debates".

This means, the only edits in each "… talk" namespace that are allowed by either the original poster or somebody else, including administrators and such would be: … and nothing more. No punctuation, no grammar, and especially no wording. If somebody uses improper language, then an administrator might step in and change that, but that wouldn't be allowed to the regular contributor.
 * keeping the structure/order, by indenting properly and adding headers where necessary
 * adding unsigned where necessary
 * repairing red-links whithout changing the original context

This includes that you should not edit your own posts at a later point of time! Because, you don't know how many people have already read it and how many people are referring to something from it. (E.g. if I hadn't removed a specific comment from a specific character's comment section on this wiki, replacing it with "That comment was deleted", two follow-up comments would have been much better understandably, but this way only lead to further offenses, a user block and that already mentioned "heated debate.")

A wiki has a preview feature, to avoid a number of edits in row only because of typos or bad wording. (Really, read that linked guideline, it's very good.)

Do you send an e-mail to somebody, only to recall it and make improvements? Or do you break into the recipient's mailbox, open the letter you sent and make some fixes? No, what's sent (and read) is sent (and read). You can add a note, you might insert stuff in a way I did over on MEW with the crossed-out section, but once posted it should forever be clear what was posted. (Or deleted completely by staff due to violating something.) (I usually turn a blind eye to several follow-up edits on my own talk page, because I check each single edit anyway. But still it's one thing to save the comment and fix a link or something two minutes later, and another thing to change wording only on the next day. By the way, there was that other edit which I wanted to revert, because it let me look like an idiot: I cited you (an error of yours that wasn't obvious for me) – and you simply changed that wording. Another example for things going wrong by editing comments … I didn't it immediately because that was in my off-time, and forgot it later.)

Really, I don't know how I earnt respect from you, beyond the basic respect people should have for each other. But D.R. just earnt mine – for that tough but not rough supporting post on T.'s talk. That was a good one, don't you think?
 * About sages and followers

For the general escalation of topic and wording there, of both of you … I can understand your emotions and what followed them. I hadn't written it that way. Perhaps. Sometimes I also get heated, at most times leading to sarcasm. Sometimes I just resignate. What remains: a bad feeling; not liking that section on his talk page; dissatisfaction with the atmosphere; and one more argument to not spend too much time on that wiki, at least as long as somebody specific is present. (And perhaps currently somebody else thinks the same about me here.)

You didn't drop a word about B. and GP … -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 09:43, August 13, 2018 (UTC)

I didn't think about editing my own comments until you gave examples of why it should stay the way you put it the first time (or after you've finished what you've written and its been commented on). There are consequences I hadn't thought of. Good points.

Yes, DR said very nice things in the right fashion. He doesn't do that normally. A stand up guy. He should be an admin but the other three as a group will never let him. T won't stop being a selfish king. E will just be neutral. And the other I've only spoken to once and he hasn't been active in over a year. So T will say no and that's it. They tried to dethrone him a while back and some how magically he got help with just enough no votes from a bunch of long quiet editors (years) to stay in power. If there were a way to become an admin to become a check and balance of his tyrannical power, I would. But T would never let me become an admin either.

I didn't have anything to say about B or GP. That's why I didn't write anything.

Thanks again for your help and advice. :) --GS877 (talk) 21:23, August 13, 2018 (UTC)


 * Note to myself: next time be less schoolmasterly and throw in some more emojis. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 06:43, August 14, 2018 (UTC)

CalOkand
CompleCCity! Thank you for the updates to Tattered Parchment. I had hoped it was a singular item — and then I encountered the others. I have no idea how the item codes work, so I am glad you could come in and straighten out the work that I had done.

As it's a wiki, I appreciate your contributions and improvements to what I had started — and your reasoning behind them!

I go off of what the Items section is as far as the Item Codes; beyond that, I don't know how to use them to make the items appear or however else the codes are used.

I am a native English speaker. It should be "on the xy-level of Watcher's Keep", unless you're saying it's "in (without an xy-level of) Watcher's Keep."

CalOkand (talk) 04:20, September 7, 2018 (UTC)

Compleccity, I mistyped when I was entering in categories and thus Stub — https://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Stub — is a new category. I have corrected this error, but would you please delete the aforementioned category?

CalOkand (talk) 23:00, September 8, 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! I will keep those links and ideas in mind as I edit. My workplace used a wiki system where I had to add the categories manually, so that was a habit.

I will start sorting through unused wiki images this afternoon. What do I do if I come across duplicate images, such as  and because the Golden Torso links to other images? Is there a "delete me" category for images? "Delete" tends to be an admin-only function, so I want to make it easier for those reviewing and deleting.

CalOkand (talk) 16:46, September 9, 2018 (UTC)

CompleCCity, thank you for picking up after my messes yesterday. I am sorry that I caused so much chaos. I have been sick the last few days and had hoped that I could add a few categories without making too much trouble. The next time I am this sick, I will not be as ambitious as I was this time around.

CalOkand (talk) 01:08, September 18, 2018 (UTC)

Lowercase D in "dialogues"! ARGH. I will follow this from now on. Sorry!

CalOkand (talk) 03:59, September 19, 2018 (UTC)

I assign categories quickly by opening what needs a tag in a new browser tab, adding the tags and then closing the tabs. With the Audio files, I copy and paste the Category; with the other ones, I click the "add category" button and type what I need.

CalOkand (talk) 04:16, September 20, 2018 (UTC)

NO! You can't do THAT!!!
Hey CompleCCity,

No, you're wrong. You don't know what you're doing. You can't take pictures like that. That's not my arbitrarily made up way to capture in-game pics. You don't understand. I'm rendering 3-D video for a flying cam vanity shot...

Dummkopf. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! My german is a very rusty but I do remember that word. (It's was either that or really super offensive curse word insults about your mother). Somehow, I think that I chose correctly with the less offensive word. :)

I just had to say something. :)

I have a technical question for you concerning categories.

I have an article called Kett: Primus. I add and it goes into that category. This is a codex entry and the name of an enemy. I want to change the name of the link of what is displayed on the category page and the letter A, B, etc where it is located.

Instead of it displaying "Kett: Primus" in the category "Characters", I want it to display "Primus".

I tried this:

It moved "Kett: Primus" from K to P but still displays "Kett: Primus".

I've also tried the following but nothing renames the page but instead just moves it between P, K, blank space, etc. Btw | translates into |. Learn something new every day. :)

Is it just the nature of categories that ONLY the actual article name will be placed in the category?

I knew you would probably know immediately the answer to this question. I couldn't find anything online and I know I'm just missing something dumb (or it's not possible). Thanks for your help in advance. --GS877 (talk) 23:12, September 21, 2018 (UTC)

"Is it just the nature of categories that ONLY the actual article name will be placed in the category?"

Yes!

I know, frustrating.

Leave the page uncategorized, but make a categorized redirect to it. Unusual, but would serve the purpose. :)

The exclamation mark/pipe thing you already learned when I was fixing your disambiguation links back then. I seem to be a poor teacher if you forget such things this quick. Dummkopf. (What's that in English?) ;) -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 23:45, September 21, 2018 (UTC)

No, you are not a poor teacher. Not by any means! I remembered that you could switch a | for the | because I've been using it. :) Sometimes the coding won't allow the pipe so you have to replace it with the | . I like the pipe better (just looks nicer to me when reading it). I didn't know that it would convert | over into the pipe symbol on the category page.

Because other existing articles list the enemy first as the article name and then the codex is a section on the page, I'll end up renaming the page. It's not a lot of work to do but I wanted to ask if there was an easy solution I was missing before I tried to do that. A non-categorized page and a categorized redirect doesn't follow the existing category framework. It is a very clever solution though. :)

Just call me a moron. :) That's a good version of that word in english. I should have made the connection that pipe equals | . Sometimes you are just a moron and don't think correctly. :)

Thanks again for your help. :)--GS877 (talk) 01:30, September 22, 2018 (UTC)

Of course I will not call you a moron – why would I? (My online dictionary doesn't even list it as possible translation to "Dummkopf" – there are sixty-four, but no "moron". It starts with "blockhead", and one American pejorative term would be – ha! – "dummkopf". "Moron", on the other hand, is translated as "Idiot" (which interestingly does only further down the list translate back to "idiot") or "Schwachkopf" … Well, all this – of course! – is not the reason why I wouldn't. :)

Hey, I've missed our talks. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 02:02, September 22, 2018 (UTC)

I've missed out talks as well. :) After I left that other place, it's been much easier and fun to edit. I still pop over there to see what's going on but it's pretty dead. That butthead is still up to his same old tricks. It's pretty easy to criticize and tear apart someone else's work after they created all of the work to begin with. Ooh, the admin made 4 tiny changes based on format months afterwards but I created 500 pages of brand new content and all of the structure and framework. But I'm the stupid one who doesn't know what he's doing. (Insert some random curse words and biting comments about how bad of an editor I am in the subject line). :) Just not worth being there anymore. DeldiRe said hey to me at the new place about a week ago. I got a chance to talk to him for a bit. It was nice. I missed getting to work with him on stuff. I let him know that he is always welcome at the new place and that it is much a much nicer place to be.

Never did get a response from the other admin. I think that says plenty about her character. What you don't say, speaks just as loudly as what you do. You don't have to agree with me, but you can at least respond back and say "I'm looking into it" or "Stop rocking the boat" or something. Saying nothing at all just sealed the deal for me. After two weeks of nothing, I let my last words there say everything about me. Sticking up myself and stating exactly how I feel. Such a lovely line from Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka. "You get nothing! You Lose! GOOD DAY SIR!" :) I always loved that line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U

--GS877 (talk) 06:38, September 24, 2018 (UTC)

Simulacrum
Ty for all your many wonderful contributions to the wonderful BG wikia.

Simulacrum seems to level characters to 60% of XP not 60% of level. Is there any way to test this?

Also is HP 60% of that new level or of caster's HP as stated? just wanted to confirm since in-game discription seems a bit off from my testing but I don't have the code awarness you have.


 * Not so sure about all that "wonderfulness" … ;)


 * Really – I think, you're overestimating me. I am able to understand dialogue files and game scripts (to a certain extent), but if it comes to such inner game mechanics, with "opcodes" and such, I'm often completely overwhelmed.
 * Most things I do by analyzing the game files, not play-testing. Doesn't help with Simulacrum, though. And currently I don't have a savegame that I could indeed use to test …
 * In such cases I refer to external sources:
 * the Beamdog forums are good, but this one nets 60 pages of results – too much for me right now to browse through (there seems to be something wrong with the spell, according to this specific thread)
 * PlayItHardcore often has some decent technical and background information; not so much on this one, but clearly their description differs from what is told elsewhere
 * the IESDP is a good research tool for all game file related, but unfortunately I couldn't find anything useful about this spell's effects
 * I haven't tried Google, yet …


 * If your testing reveals reliable results that let the spell description look wrong, this of course should be added there in a "Gameplay" section. It's also possible to alter the infobox stats, where necessary – in that case cross-out any cited in-game values (by wrapping them in tags) and state the correct information. (Has possibly to be cross-checked with the non-enhanced game. Well, perhaps later …)
 * Do as you think best! :)


 * I usually prefer one topic completely accessible on one page – that's why I replied here, rather than cross-posting on two talk pages. Hope, you don't mind. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:43, September 22, 2018 (UTC)


 * P.S. Try to remember signing next time, with four