User talk:CompleCCity

"Are you talkin' to me? Are YOU talkin' to ME?"

- Marl

BG3
So... how did the analytics perform for the wiki today after the BG3 announcement? I work those numbers regularly at my work, so I am genuinely super curious!

CalOkand (talk) 03:36, June 7, 2019 (UTC)


 * Making a new page for BG3 makes a lot of sense, for the benefit of SEO and the wiki itself. I love that Larian is sharing a lot of new content on YouTube. I can't wait to see how the newest video goes.


 * CalOkand (talk) 01:45, June 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * The newest video (to my knowledge) is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI4v6hC_rjM. Subscribing to the channel may also be helpful.


 * (I had hoped for new details today, but all we — still — know is that the 5e module "Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus" will be a prequel of sorts to BG3, take place a hundred years after the last game and have a gazetteer for the changes since BG2.)


 * CalOkand (talk) 04:06, June 11, 2019 (UTC)


 * I thought I had heard mention of "gazetter" of the "movers and shakers" of Baldur's Gate when Mike and Sven went onto the PC Gaming Show, but I guess not. It may come from another video or something that I had watched about it...


 * CalOkand (talk) 02:48, June 12, 2019 (UTC)

CTM-Team Hilfe für Baldurs Gate III
Hallo,

(da du ja anscheinend in Deutschland wohnst, schreibe ich dir hier mal auf Deutsch ;-)

Tatsächlich bin ich ein Content Team Moderator, was so viel bedeutet, dass wir den Communities gerade bei neu angekündigten Spielen helfen das Wiki aufzubauen. Dies gilt besonders für den Inhalt von neuen Spielen, als auch die Erstellung einer übersichtlicheren Hauptseite oder das Wiki mobil zu gestalten.

Du sagtest, du bräuchtest Hilfe bei der Hauptseite und da würde ich dich gerne unterstützen. Des Weiteren würde ich dir auch bei den Inhalten für das neu angekündigte Baldurs Gate III helfen. Wiki Manager sind dafür da dich bei weiteren Schritten nachträglich zu unterstützen, wenn du bei weiteren Vorhaben Hilfe bräuchtest. Councilor sind etwas anderes, die geben Fandom das nötige Community-Feedback für neue Features oder Veränderungen der Plattform. Falls du noch weitere Fragen haben solltest stehe ich natürlich jederzeit zur Verfügung :) Cyanide3 (talk) 18:16, June 7, 2019 (UTC)


 * Sure! No problem using the English language. I just wanted to let you know I am fine with both languages.


 * For the mobile main page: You can set up your own mobile main page on the right corner underneath the button for "Editing the Main page". I would like to start working on that, so mobile users can navigate through your wiki.
 * For the main page itself I would suggest making some changes, because a main page can be shortened for people to navigate quickly and better through the wiki. For this I created a User:Cyanide3/Worksheet.
 * I changed the "Games" section into a gallery, because it's mobile friendlier and can be compatible for different sizes of computer screens.
 * I would delete "Featured images" since I think the important parts of the wiki should be featured on the main page.
 * I changed the "Video" section because I think the main focus should be on Baldurs Gate III. That is what people are searching for right now. Keep the main page as simply it's possible because it's "only" an overview for the rest of the wiki.
 * For the right side of the main page I would shorten the help section to the most important links. Later I show you that I put some of the links in the navigation bar.


 * Other ideas:
 * Polls are always great! I contacted Fandom about enabeling the discussions on this wiki. This is a much newer version and work as same as the old Threads. For more informations -> Help:Discussions. Through this "system" you can create polls, discussion threads for BGIII or create a countdown for the game if you wish to set one up. The discussions are also a big part of the mobile version, which means mobile users/readers can discuss whenever they want to. With threads it wasn't possible without switching to the desktop version.
 * Twitter and Facebook can be added on the main page as a Help:Social media integration.
 * Dafür musste ich Firefox's "Elemente zur Aktivitätenverfolgung blockieren" für das Wiki aufheben. Wunderte mich schon, warum nix angezeigt wird … ;) Du kannst übrigens interne Help:Links verwenden, nicht nötig zu CC zu linken. (Und in deutsch, weil ich nicht weiß wie das Browser-Feature in englisch heißt. ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:40, June 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * On my worksheet I also created a newer version for the Navigation bar. This incudes the direct links to the games of this Fandom. If you give me the go I can change it within a minute.


 * I can start working on the main page now and we can finish everything on the weekend. If I find a good image for BGIII I can create a nice background for this wiki too. And please whenever you feel "this is not right" or you don't like a certain change - we can alsways discuss and work on what is the best for the wiki. You are the admin here and I would like to help you to make the wiki a better place for people searching for Baldurs Gate III :) Cyanide3 (talk) 07:19, June 8, 2019 (UTC)

That is completely fine by me having another user within the team. After all it's your wiki and you know what is best for your community. For the mobile main page there is no history, but we could set one MMP up, if you both want to. After all this page will be shown on any mobile device instead of the page you see through the desktop.


 * The games as a gallery is way better, though (see my note above) with reduced icon size.
 * Sure! You can edit the Worksheet if you like to. I was just making a gallery, but I didn't set up a size I really really wanted to have.
 * Perhaps this can be merged with "What is Baldur's Gate" somehow …
 * Yes that could be done. Then again I would shorten it a bit and then set up a link to the real article. If the reader wants to know more about it he can visit the page.
 * If we have "featured videos", I don't really understand why removing "featured images"...
 * Videos deliver the reader a ton of new information in a very short time. This is why videos are very important and it saves up some time for the reader. The readers will likely watch the trailer and then decides if he wants to know more about Baldurs Gate III then to read the full article first and then decide if he likes the videogame or not. As I said: Keep the main page as short as possible. Images are great, but the readers are visiting (mainly) your wiki because of all the new informations and not just for the images. You always have to think about: How would I visit the page as a reader if I am a newbie to all of this?
 * "Helping out" … As far as I know, the policies and help articles were created long time ago and mostly haven't been touched since. And I don't think, they were set up as this wiki's own policy, but simply copied from somewhere else.
 * Alright I didn't know that. Having those links on the main page is fine, but I would keep them simple as in "where to edit, where to get help, admins and what are the rules". Too many links scare them off because then the reader/user will think "Oh my god so many links and policies...okay I better go now."
 * General layout: do you plan to move away from a two-column design? Because on your worksheet there's only one
 * That is only for the worksheet, since the main page has a different design structure.
 * Portals? Like it's done on Dragon Age (or similar)?
 * Portals are okay, but they can be very overwhelming. Better keep one article for one game and then link from the article to the other side-articles as in "Weapons in Baldurs Gate III" or "Monsters in Baldurs Gate III".
 * I do understand the importance of a really new game. I do understand the importance of it and how the wiki handles it for SEO. I know that many people, including staff members, prefer the idea of putting the new stuff to the top.
 * The thing is the people visit your wiki, because they want to know about the new stuff/Baldurs Gate III. And you as a user/admin want to show them the easiest way to get to the article. This is why many wikis put the fresh stuff on the main page or implement the links into the navigation bar. That has nothing to do with the SEO. That is just analysing the readers behaviour and you can change it at anytime once the "hype" is over.
 * Now you want to enable discussions? Who shall moderate those? We have no real community here. Most comments are made by IPs. And by my experience, moderation is needed.
 * Fair enough. That was just a hint, because there are a lot of readers, who only want to talk with others about the game and not set up an account for editing on the wiki. The tool is great for getting people connected sharing the same passion for a videogame.
 * What exactly do you mean with "create a nice background"? Can't we simply use the image that's currently shown in the news section?
 * That was not ment to be as in this background is bad. I just offered my help if you want a new design for the wiki.
 * I know, it's hard to work together with me, being a perfectionist and sometimes demotivating person (and also a control freak) … sorry.
 * That is alright. I would call myself that too. ;-) Cyanide3 (talk) 18:44, June 8, 2019 (UTC)

New Styling!
Great job on the new styling! I am digging it thus far. Now to make an edit or two to my favorite wiki...

The use of serif fonts online is antithetical to what I've read about digital typography (a recurring example from my workplace is here). Serifs looks different, sure, but it works better on paper than in a digital format. It also slows down readers, if I remember correctly, but I can't find where I read that detail...

What did my creation of Key Ring show you needed to fix regarding containers? I am very curious.

CalOkand (talk) 03:24, June 15, 2019 (UTC)

CTM Help for Baldurs Gate III
Hello,

sorry for the late reply, I had some private things going on.


 * I think, this has to become some sort of combination between table and gallery, perhaps using templates for scaling to different screen widths or something … not today, I guess … or?
 * In my worksheet I made a suggestion about a gallery. It's an easy way to show the icons and link to all the articles. Besides it changes and is flexible for different screen sizes.
 * Helping out: The items shown are now reduced almost to your choice, with the exception of keeping wanted pages.
 * That is great! The other links can be listed in the Wiki navigation bar if a reader wants to get deeper into detail with wiki editing.
 * This is a compromise due to the importance of the new stuff, so it shows up first, but only on the front page. But don't underestimate the old games – they made up the cult, the new one is trying to become part of.
 * I do not underestimate them at all. In fact they are a great addition to this wiki and should never be left out. Just now the readers want to know evrything about the new game and then come back and reread everything about the old games. Besides after the "hype train" is over you can create the main page to a bit of a general overview where not everything is focussed on Baldurs Gate III.
 * Well, it's now linked by the icon in the main page's top section, it's linked by name in the section directly below, "News", and it is linked by name in the right top section, the feeds. Want more? ;)
 * MOAH! No just kidding. That is completely fine. :D
 * If the work that has to be done for it doesn't annoy me too much, I will try to create a new logo for the wiki – as a start for a new design; though this will cost me some time.
 * I am pretty sure once the game will get more promo material there will be some nice and decent pictures on the website and you can use them for a new background.
 * You don't have access to MediaWiki namespace?
 * You mean access to MediaWiki:Commin.css and Wiki.css? I do.
 * Once discussions are enabled, there's no return to a forum, I guess?
 * The Forum will not be supported since it's an old feature and discussions are "the new thing" (The hip and cool stuff). But yes it is not possible to highlight a discussion, which then will be shown on the wiki for everybody. I can't say when or how the forums will retire. I am pretty sure the date will be published on Community Wiki. In conclusio: The change will happen but it has no date yet. If you want to bring some new ideas to Fandom you can write the staff team via Special:Contact.
 * Shall we display article headers of games (and some others) as shown currently on Baldur's Gate III? Or is this a bad idea?
 * Before I understand the question the wrong way: Where do you want to display them?

Cyanide3 (talk) 18:50, June 15, 2019 (UTC)

PS: Ja ich war auch mal im Sims Wiki. Ich bin überall ;-)

RU Baldur's Gate Wiki
Hello! I'm Mapmaker Lich (simply Lich), member of RU FANDOM Squadron (volunteer editors who helping perspective wikis) and currently I am working at RU Baldur's Gate Wiki. I'm already established interlanguage links, but... Can you add link to RU Wiki on the mainpage?  -- Added by Mapmaker Lich (talk • contribs)


 * That form of signature created red links, so I've substituted it. ;)


 * Uhm, I'm answering here, because
 * I prefer it that way;
 * there wasn't a working link to your talk page before;
 * and I even didn't know – without researching – who was talking with me.


 * I've added the link. You say you've "already established interlanguage links" – where? At least not on a single one of the eight articles that wiki has as of now. Would be nice, you'd really do that. And then also here, because I don't know, except for Imoen, what those are about. ;)
 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 14:10, June 22, 2019 (UTC)


 * Okay, one of the eight, the main page. I've linked the other seven there and here now. Do you think, your wiki will grow?


 * Perhaps you're interested in taking a look on our main page news? ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 14:38, June 22, 2019 (UTC)

Fonts
I'm not Fandom staff; I do web work for my job and have had to absorb a lot of web and online design ideology. I like the font you used. It will work well; godspeed implementing it...

I think it would look pretty cool if you made it appear in the floating text for the games!

CalOkand (talk) 02:43, June 25, 2019 (UTC)

Accomplishments
Hey C, the boss is thinking of putting together a monthly blog post about notable accomplishments or events on wikis that we work with. Since the BG3 announcement, you've made some big changes around here, right? Anything in particular that is noteworthy and that you'd like to have mentioned? &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 23:51, June 26, 2019 (UTC)
 * And by the time you think I've done a good job here, I disappear from the screen … 😉
 * No, really, do you think I've made "big changes" since then, Moviesign, something noteworthy? Was there actually more than just a change in style? Not so sure …
 * Do you have a link to such news (I guess, some staff blog)? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:54, August 26, 2019 (UTC)
 * No, really, do you think I've made "big changes" since then, Moviesign, something noteworthy? Was there actually more than just a change in style? Not so sure …
 * Do you have a link to such news (I guess, some staff blog)? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:54, August 26, 2019 (UTC)

New Community Page Header Image
Check out the new image on Special:Community :) You can use it however you wish, of course, I just thought it would look good there. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 21:42, June 28, 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing me to that page – another one of those things I always forget to care about. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:00, August 26, 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing me to that page – another one of those things I always forget to care about. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:00, August 26, 2019 (UTC)

Greeting
Thanks for your welcome message! I've been playing through Baldur's Gate with a Wizard Slayer and decided to make some corrections/updates to that page. I especially wanted to correct the error that a WS cannot wear magical boots. This kit is underrated, I think, and I want to make sure everyone has the best info. on it.TheTurnipKnight (talk) 14:57, August 3, 2019 (UTC)

Abusive Editor
You or another admin may want to review the contributions of the IP editor who recently vandalized your talk page. While some of their edits seem to be legit, at least one that I spotted contained incorrect info, and several of their messages were rude or downright abusive towards other editors. Thanks! – Robin Hood  (talk)  01:07, August 4, 2019 (UTC)

Artimis – August 18
Hello CompleCCity,

I have a question about listing AC in a creature infobox. I post this reprint from a reply you left on the AC page...

"So, what your inventory or character screen shows you as (effective) armor class is what you have as AC. As I mentioned above, most (if not all) ACs on creatures here on the wiki that are stated in their infoboxes will not reflect the armor they're wearing. So you'd also have to check their inventory (also in the infobox, if it's complete) or any possible "Gameplay" sections. If you see a creature with an AC below 10 that's wearing armor, you (for the moment) would have to calculate the factual effective AC. (Applying changes to the infobox that allow implemented display of all bonuses by equipment is a huge effort.)"

I think you're over complicating this concept. OK so almost every NPC in the game has a natural AC of 10. Add on armor or any other wearable item and this changes their AC, that's a fact. So EE Keeper does the work for you because the NPC's current AC is listed between base and effective AC. That's the number that counts right? To me, listing in the infobox profile that natural AC is 10, in and by itself, is not providing the complete picture.

Let's use Gretek as an example. I'm looking at his EE profile and base and effective AC are 10. Add the effects of Plate Mail and a Large Shield and now it's 6. So in battle, that's what you're up against right? So my suggestion is to add a Modified AC line next to Natural AC in the infobox and there ya go.

Not many creatures (some NPC's and a few monsters) alter their AC in combat, if I remember correctly. Some quaff a potion although I can't recall how many actually hit up a bottle of Stone Form or  Potion of Defense. Some magic users alter their AC but the spell cast is usually listed in the running action dialogue and if one plays in true turn based play, there is the ability to react after calculating any added AC effect. But this is something that should never be attempted to be listed in the infobox. That's something that should be written about/noted in the descriptive area of the creature profile.

Think about it, these creature profiles are not going to change, they're set to what they are, and all we do is extract the data from EE Keeper and slap it into the infobox, which provides a hell of a lot better look than dealing with EE Keeper. Ok so it would be some work to go back and add this to every creature infobox, but Rome wasn't....and when I get bored with other aspects of life, I come over here for a few months and play this goofy game and have fun turning my mind off for awhile. Excuse me while I light my spliff......

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 17:25, August 18, 2019 (UTC)

CompleCCity – August 27
Hello, Artimis! Once a highly active contributor here, but when I started you were gone. Now you've returned – while I was in sort of a minor hiatus … but finally we meet! 🙂

Uhm, I didn't speak of adding stat changes to the infobox that happen due to any combattant quaffing potions or casting spells – that's indeed stuff for a gameplay section. But implementing such alterations that are based on other stats or a creature's inventory is an idea for some day in the future – e.g. by adding a line "Modified AC" (or similar).
 * Take a look at this related discussion on the Icewind Dale Wiki.

But, have I probably misunderstood your comment? The in-fact 'effective' AC that's shown by EE Keeper (not so by the original editions' Keepers) does not include inventory (or any effects), it just calculates the modification by dexterity. (By the way, I always use Near Infinity for such things.)

Hm … I don't exactly get that "over complicating" thing … -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 09:48, August 27, 2019 (UTC)

Artimis – August 27
Hello CompleCCity,

Ya I became aware of this wiki just before Islandking made his appearance (or maybe he was a she, I never bothered to inquire, but it was fun working with Islandking before I had to move on to other endeavors.). Funny to see that Islandking has retired. The wiki has come along way and looks really good. When I came onboard the wizard and priest spell pages were a mess. So that's where I concentrated much of my input. Also adding new NPC pages and updating images. Did a bunch of work to the Isle of Balduran area as there was hardly anything created for much of the Tales stuff. Now I'm back to just adding and updating NPC/Creature pages. That's fun stuff for me :) Gonna be adding some new stuff right after this post.

Ya I have to eat some crow on that overcomplicated statement. After posting that, I went back and tested on Gretek some more and quickly realized my error of not incorporating Dex/Str bonuses into the AC/THAC0 equation. Not to mention what Con does to HP. So it is more complicated than I imagined when those bonuses are added to what a creatures inventory is, then yikes, it does get tough to follow, SSSHHEESH!!! I figured that the black number that isn't in the box was the final number. Nope. Doesn't include inventory items. You are correct.

It's too bad the creators of this bloody game didn't just created a program that gave the player a stat page, similar to what the party members have, that could be accessed when clicking on said NPC/Creature. Now I'm not all that tech/code savvy but is there a way to tap into the actual game code that determines the player character stats? If that were possible, might it help you figure out a way to code up something for the infobox?

Islandking also tried to get me to use NI, but I haven't figured it out yet. EE Keeper is easier. But in this latest go around with making additions to the wiki, I have become hipper on how a creature interacts with your player character.

And don't worry about being a perfectionist and love of detail and all that, yer German, it's in the DNA brother. I'm half German too, so it courses thru my veins also.

Cheers

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 21:22, August 27, 2019 (UTC)

CompleCCity – August 28
Hello, Artimis! (Where's your name from, if I'm allowed to ask?)

I wouldn't exactly attribute this to something like "German DNA" – it's in my DNA due to my heritage, but not for being a German. (And half of it may be learned or acquired rather than being in my genes. 😉 )

This includes, by the way, an urge to have control over things – I'm a control freak as well, which is why currently I'm less contributing but checking all the (unpatrolled) edits made during my absence (will cost me some time).

Yeah, Islandking – 't was a good time with … him, which I used first after having asked to be allowed to do so – I mean, "king", you know? But later I became unsure of this, and after the retirement I started to use neutral pronouns.

Though, while working with them felt and was good, we sometimes had very different opinions on how things should look or be done here on the wiki. Honestly, there's a good part of their work that I have changed later to match more my vision of this (of a) wiki – a vision that constantly evolves and changes, probably will never be complete and needs lots and lots of work.

As for different opinions: I just noticed several changes of yours to Faizah Tin – it might happen that some of them get reverted by me in the near future. Why, for example, did you remove the Felonius Gist's Statues section? Or the lock difficulty of the manor? And I have to check the notes, if there are indeed so many differences between the games … Also, in my opinion it's better to have only one link rather than two subsequent ones, where it's not obvious for the reader that it does matter if they're clicking on the first or second word to get there – even if this means "less information". I'm speaking of your change from  to. An alternative to include both links would be to change the wording in a way that the latter link doesn't follow the former directly anymore; on the other hand should the location offer a link to the person right at the start, so two links might be considered as redundant.

For the non-present line breaks in the spell list you added in your latest edit: back then when I expanded the page, that was my way to distinguish between spell levels; nowadays, every spell gets a new line from me as well. 😉 (Also, back then I didn't have access to the Enhanced Editions – probably as you with the original games.)

If I'm making changes to someone's edit, I always try to put an explanation into the edit summary, so you know where to look if you've got questions. But my talk is always open, as well.

Regarding all these game icons and symbols: those – and how they're to be used – was one of the mentioned major debates between Ike (I'm allowed to use this short form of their name 😉 ) and me. The list now has some more entries, but the template names have become longer. The ones with "infobox" are smaller than those for "article"s, while "12" and "16" serve the same purpose (use 12 in IB and 16 on page). At some places in the infobox the icon looks better when placed before the content, at other places it looks better behind – you have to see for yourself which is more neat, but I'm trying to establish a pattern for – as of now, at least – items.
 * There's an issue with these icons and the VisualEditor: after somebody has VE-edited a page where these appear in the main article text, often line breaks are automatically added before and after them, completely breaking the whole page layout. Please, have an eye on this.

I've also widely expanded the infoboxes and added lots of auto-categorization, which you certainly will have noticed. Take a look at their category, to see if you can agree with what I put there as "How to fill" and perhaps get some updates on that topic. If infobox parameters are changed by me (added, renamed, deprecated), expect this to be shown "immediately" in the copy-paste section of each template, so it's advised to use those rather than copying from existing articles.

The one I put the most effort into "recently" is the infobox item. The infobox creature has the most complex auto-cat system, but that isn't complete as of now. If you're interested in what's missing there, we can open an additional discussion over there on its talk page. Currently I don't see me implementing the above requested additional features in the near future – first I'd like to continue where I stopped with the creature categories. (This isn't cut in stone, however. 😉 ) Regarding the latter IB – plan is to substitute the infobox for all companions with it, which is why the parameters from that one are now included. And there's also a infobox creature redux for certain (documented) purposes.

And no, I don't know of any other tool than the two already mentioned ones to get creature stats, except for using the method, Ineth described in that IWDW discussion.

The list of templates has also been largely expanded, most of them with documentation. There's e.g. ft, ol and pp for thieving abilities related information (difficulties); with location you can add area code and coordinates; count and infinite can be used to give the number of an item sold by a merchant or how often a spell is memorized; conditional recolors text and is used where there is more than one option (but often can use additional bold and/or italic formatting); and side note speaks for itself (I hope). 😉

Also, there are many, many redirects for singular/plural things and various forms of capitalization. Those are intended to be used. 🙂

So much for an update. Don't know, yet, how many of these you've already found by yourself – if so, then you can jump the info above in smaller or larger parts.

Looking forward to a constructive future of the wiki with a veteran editor. (Say, did you have any additional user rights in the past?)

-- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:52, August 28, 2019 (UTC)

P.S. You should take a look at this. 😉

Artimis – August 30
Hello CompleCCity,

Artimis is in reference to Artimus Pyle, he was a drummer for Lynyrd Skynyrd. And Grimshaw is just a take off of scrimshaw. And Daddy-O, you can ask me any question you want. I'm not PC at all and there ain't nothing you could say or do that would offend me. That was a bit of a difference between Islandking and me. IMO, this is a boys game. Now chicks want to play, more power to 'em, but when you read how a lot of spells are written, it's the wizard or priest, "he, him" not they them. When you see that (  He, She) business, that's all Islandking there. But then when he got the "keys to the vault" and ran with it, I wasn't too hip on the abrupt changes that were happening. So I split. I picked the game up again a few months ago because I knew that there were pages of certain NPC's (towards the end of the game) that had never been created. So when I checked the wiki and saw that it had returned to some normalcy and several of those NPC's still didn't have pages, then I figured I dive back in and write them up. So now you have the keys to the hot rod and your in the driver's seat. Just remember, every leader eventually leaves the scene, and on an open source site, people love to fiddle.

When I first started playing the original game and begun to get hip to the mechanics of how it worked and the different paths that could be taken when interacting with all of the creatures in the game, it always bothered me that I'm not given enough information about the creature I'm up against. During a battle, "how many hit points does the creature have to begin with or remaining when in an actual combat situation?", was always a big WTF. But there was nothing out there in internet land that could help. So I started a spreadsheet and every time I interacted with a creature, I'd test and re-test to identify how many Hit Points said creature has. Because even with the EE stuff, barely injured, injured, and badly injured still doesn't tell me squat. I also recorded XP and items too. So when this wiki came around, WOW!!!, now I have a source for real time info. Sweet. So then one gets the itch to add info, update stats and all that jazz. And like Gatekeeper, EE Keeper is great at getting the goods on any creature now. The wiki just makes it look nicer ;)

I try not to step on toes when I edit a page, but sometimes the grammar and choice of words is....lacking, so I beef it up. As for the Felonius Gist stuff; I pulled the Statue info because it's redundant and makes the page too cumbersome. Plus that's a great part of the joy of exploring this site. Hit a link and see where it takes you. Sorry about the lock difficulty. It didn't link to anything so I figured it must have been something someone way back slapped up there and never did anything with it.

As for the differences between games.....now there's a can of worms that stares at me from it's spot on the shelf, constantly daring me to open it, if you know what I mean. Is it even worth having that info on the site considering that, with the latest EE version, the game plays the way it was envisioned too by it's original creators twenty years ago. 99.9% of the bugs in the game have been addressed, spells work the way they're supposed to, dialogue is now correct (including grammar), certain creatures have been altered (for better or worse). There's no way I could go back and pop them discs into my computer, considering I don't even have them anymore. I approach it as purely a nostalgia thing, because honestly, who would want to go back and play the original version. Not I. Although I do feel the current "look" of the game, the whole interface or what you stare at when you play the game, looks rather stale to me. I like the original look much better. Even some of the earlioer EE versions looked better. Iwas noticing this while crusing some images last week.

Now when it comes to updating a page, if I see info on the page that doesn't correspond to how the game plays now, than I naturally assume that that is original BG stuff and so I place it in the Notes section and state as much with an icon (The left to right position of the statues in Gist's Manor are a good example).

I agree with your one link to two concept and I think over-linked pages are ridiculous, but that was a situation where I thought seperate links to Gist and the manor were warranted. Unless you go by my less is more theory of follow the link and see what opens up. Than yes it could be reduced to just a link to the manor. And when I contemplate it, yes the statues really have nothing in common with Gist besides being in his house, so change it back. I'll make the edit as soon as I post this reply.

Game Icons - like the concept, they're more pleasing to the eye than superscripted BG and BGEE. Will use the different sizes in the places you mentioned. As for before or after. Looks fine the way it is, i.e., Race - after and Weapon Proficiency - before (using Faizah Tin as an example). And yes, I did notice the visual editor quirkiness. Will work to keep it in check.

I'll use the templates going forwards. That's a lot of work there my boy. More power to ya!! Naw I never gained any user rights. Don't feel it necessary to have that much control. My contributions are more of a passive nature.

Now I do have a bit of a problem with one thing. References. I feel that they are not needed. This is a computer game with absolutely zero real world implications or consequences. We all know where the info comes from, it's static and nobody's pulling info from other seperate sites to added to this stuff (besides linking to Forgotten Realms stuff). So in my opinion, ditch the references.

Second, I also think that coordinates are unneeded too. Sure back in the day when there wasn't a Revile Details button to help with locating difficult to find hidden stashes, Ring of Wizardry or Ankheg armor come to mind, that coordinates were helpful. But when it comes to NPC or monster locations, let the player find out on their own. Because pretty soon there will be a gallery for every character or building showing their location, although I might not be the person who creates all of this, per say (South Park reference). I also think it tends to clutter up the infobox.

Weapons Proficiency - Just recently I actually paid attention to the Miscellaneous tab on a creature profile in EE Keeper and noticed that 'Legacy Proficiencies" box and how it is sometimes populated for certain creatures. My question to you since you have Infinity is, does that have any impact in the current EE? I assumed it didn't so that would explain why I added the Original BG icon to the first stats and the EE icon to the next. And if the collective "we" are going to list this than I sorta..sorta, feel that listing a "none" for EE is appropriate to reduce possible confusion by novices to the game (although they are probably asking themselves, "What the hell is this Original Baldur's Gate?" ) HA!. Although maybe it's available on Steam, I've never bothered to look.

One other thing you may have observed is that back when I was updating the spell pages, someone had occasionally put in the text section, what to me were opinions about game play, so I moved them to the comments and added the "anonymous" tilde to it. And speaking of spell pages, they're looking kinda disjointed again. Some have the scroll (an addition that I thought was most appropriate and so that's what I went with) at the top while others have this tiny image that looks really crappy. But I ain't gonna fix 'em. I had it set once and Islandking fiddled first and others have come along and mimic'd that mess. I'm sticking strictly to creature pages for now....awwww come on laugh.....

Ya we'll have some fun buttin' heads. But you're in the drivers seat, I'm in the back seat playing with the buttons and watching the world go by.

Happy Friday and remember...it's just another day to the trees.

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 00:24, August 30, 2019 (UTC)

CompleCCity – August 30
Lynyrd Skynyrd – my, then you might be even older than me, Artimis. 😄 You said it: "there ain't nothing [I] could say or do that would offend [you]". 😉

Uhm, "PC" – political correct? Then I hope, I'm not making you split from here as well, because I also try to use e.g. gender neutrality where it should be done.

You're right with saying that a lot of descriptions in-game use(d) male pronouns, but there are (or were) female pronouns as well. That's because the developers tried to stick with the underlying pen-and-paper wording as far as possible. And as far as I know, the rulebooks try to be neutral by using "he/him" and "she/her" alternating: one spell has male pronouns, the other uses female ones, then male ones again, etc. Then there's "  " (and similar things) which is game-code (and only visible when examining things with NI or reading item and spell descriptions with the Keeper browsers) and automatically adjusts the used pronoun according to the gender of the affected character – if you have a male bard reading a spell description, he is referred to, while your female mage finds herself addressed. I think, the EE replaced some of the fixed pronouns from the original games with this, but I'm not sure. My preference in such a case would be to replace "  " with either "[they]", "[them]" or – if applicable – "gw" (another new template which simply creates – correct with square brackets, how it should be done in edited citations).

I don't know about "abrupt changes", but, please, talk to me before splitting due to disagreement or annoyance. (And don't call me "leader" – I've only administrative rights.)

"I pulled the Statue info because it's redundant and makes the page too cumbersome."

You name it "cumbersome", I call it part of a "character model page". Okay, not back then, but indeed that section should serve as what I later titled "biography". Take a look at Sil, Meiala and the Sirine Queen – it's some time ago I expanded these articles, but they reflect how I think a good character/creature article should look like. (I never really have cared about this wiki's model pages; and, honestly, some of those …) Also, and opposed to Ike's opinion, I do think that such stuff, and lore, and such, earns a more prominent place on articles – this wiki is not only about all the technical stuff.

A second thought when placing that section was to implement a connection to the by me created category:Encounters, which I think is a good thing but needs way more work and expansion.

"Sorry about the lock difficulty. It didn't link to anything so I figured it must have been something someone way back slapped up there and never did anything with it."

Yeah, back then ol still was to be created.

As for the UI: you might be interested in this thread – especially those by Lefreut look good.

But as this is a wiki, and as such an encyclopedia, it should serve as a knowledge database and not care about "nostalgia" or "outdated" or such. I do plan to play through the original games (from GOG, not from CDs, which I own nevertheless), just to be able to make some better (and matching!) creature and quest screenshots from the originals. There were many changes applied (already with BGII), e.g. the Candlekeep Watchers look completely different. (I also prefer the old way of handling two-handed weapons like the quarterstaff – an animation that can't be ported back due to how dual-wielding works, sadly.) So, yes, I do think documenting the "old stuff" still has to be done here. 🙂

Actually, that "Felonius Gist's Manor"-link thing was a mistake by me: you do have a separation between both links – the apostrophe. (And in terms of "overlinking" – there I'm not a wikipedian and place the same link again in every new section of an article: somebody can use the TOC and thus skip the previous link, so they find a working one; my philosophy.) Haven't taken a look at your latest edits as I'm writing this …

"That's a lot of work there my boy. More power to ya!!"

Uh… work for you, work for the contributor? Did I make them too complicated? Or don't I get your meaning? Hm…

Ah, okay, and you do seek the discussion. 🙂

References …

Yes, that's some thing I introduced here. My philosophy: if something isn't obvious, it should be cited. And I don't think, "we [always] all know where the info comes from". My thoughts: You don't have to care about references yourself, you don't have to place them – but do they annoy you? I mean, not the potentially additional work for you as a contributor, but as a reader? (I know that if there are many, the layout of the section could need some sort of scroll-box or be collapsed or something …)
 * A leading quote on a creature article doesn't need the "speaker" – it's (almost) always from the article subject.
 * However, giving the source – which state or response from which dialog file (NI stuff) – doesn't hurt, does it?
 * If a quote is edited or shortened, some reader might be interested in the original, so why not placing that also somewhere?
 * If it's not obvious – e.g. via a placed link – why something is stated, cite it. I do this for things that happen e.g. through scripts. For the game, it doesn't matter if mage XYZ has twenty different spells memorized, each ten times – their script tells them which ones to use when and how often. And as everybody will have a different experience when fighting a hostile band of mercenaries (due to how they are managing the battle, how long it lasts, etc.), I think it's good to say which things will happen when and why – and where that info's from.
 * Similar for things that are connected to NPC-only items, which yet aren't listed in the infobox (there are ideas about how to implement those); for example, what causes the creature's immunity to normal weapons or such.

As for coordinates: those were used here from the start. And there are still players around that play the original games and don't have such a revealing feature.

You can find some thoughts about how to implement such things in this thread; it's about items, but there is a section about areas (locations) that would be transferred to other infoboxes as well. I'm also thinking about a (table-like) solution for listing locations of an item/a creature on the article main space.

Weapon proficiencies: if a creature doesn't have assigned new ones, bonuses/penalties from the old system still apply. In fact, there are only really a few creatures (I think) where these have to be distinguished between original BG1 and later games.

"One other thing you may have observed […]"

Not yet. "[…] is that back when I was updating the spell pages, someone had occasionally put in the text section, what to me were opinions about game play, so I moved them to the comments and added the "anonymous" tilde to it."

Bad idea. Not as a wiki should work.

Ike has introduced the section "Gameplay (community)" for such things. So if there are/were such things that can't be rewritten to a less subjective style, move them to such a section instead. And – this is work! – place unsigned or unsignedIP at the end; the work part of this is to research the page history to find the user who added the information (originally), and find date and time. But to the comments? No …

Actually, I don't really agree with such a section; rewriting "strategies" to a less personal tone or specific situation is preferred; then we would have to see, is the "community" opinion still useful and should be kept? A subpage could then be an alternative (PAGENAME/SUBPAGE), as the comments have replaced good old talk pages.

"And speaking of spell pages, they're looking kinda disjointed again. Some have the scroll (an addition that I thought was most appropriate and so that's what I went with) at the top while others have this tiny image that looks really crappy."

Crappy? Crappy? Yeah, you're right … Okay, uhm, take a look at Remove Curse (wizard). That's the – for now intended – future look of spell pages. (Well, not exactly, the scroll will get its own infobox just below.)

It doesn't make sense to give every spell the very same scroll symbol at the top of the IB. Not any sense. Or do you know of some?

Sadly, all spell related icons (spell, scroll, quick bar) are this tiny. I've put many, many thoughts into how to make all three icons perhaps a row, but that's technically very difficult.

Again, I'm not on the driver's seat here, and much less you on the back seat. If at all, you (and the whole community) sit on the (front) passenger seat. Perhaps I'm more of a driving assistance system than the driver themselves; the whole community should drive. (If you still nead a "pilot", refer to this wiki's founder. 😉 )

And I don't intend to butt heads with you. (Or anybody else.)

You're sometimes speaking a language I don't understand ("day to the trees"???) …

Well, okay, I might be off over the weekend or only checking in occasionally. So, have a good one! -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:58, August 30, 2019 (UTC)

Artimis – September 4
Guten Tag my friend,

Oh no you haven't offended nor chased me away. We all good. My wife has a professional pet sitting company and we were super busy this Labor day weekend. And I'm of the age in that I don't possess that itch to have to immediately respond to a post, kinda lazy ya know ;) I'll get around to it. It's that way for everybody so do go thinking that yer special...wink wink...which is what I also meant to say after that buttin' heads comment. I don't butt head either. If it were to come to that then....well....bye-bye. Know what I mean.

Ok Discussion;

He said ..she said - if you want to use they or  them I think that would be better than [Gorion's Ward]. My reasoning being that these spells, along with pretty much everything about the game, transcends this individual story/plot. Ya know I never really gave it much thought that if your character was female, the pronouns changed. So I fired up my female character, "Philthy B'otch",  and wow, that's pretty groovy how that works. So you go that route or how about this for an idea, assign every spell a number and use a random number generator to give each spell either male or female pronouns every time it's accessed on the wiki. Just some thoughts.

I like the Lore stuff too, considering that I'm not as interested in the technical side of many aspects of the game. But I understand that room must be made for both where needed. Personally I find the expanded dialogue section a complete bore. Makes the page to crowded (cumbersome:)). Would be great it that section could be reduced and expanded as needed. If I want to check out dialogue, I just replay the encounter and go a different route with the dialogue. To me that is more interesting than reading it on a webpage. You get that stuff from NI and I get it from playing the game. But my rationale for removing the Statue info was because it's located on the Statue page, so by having it on each individual NPC page, that's just redundant stuff. Click the link and go explore.

I get it that info pertaining to the Original BG is important, but come on, if you're a fourteen year old kid today picking this game up for the first time, you're not going to be playing the original version. Although I do miss the ability to lure a Ghast down to the entrance of the Nashkel Mine and let it wreak havoc on the guards standing there. That was always fun to watch. But  yes I think it is important to reference when changes have been made from the Original to the EE versions. In fact I'm about to make note of this in the Candlekeep caves area page, how Diarmid turns hostile after speaking with him. In EE he doesn't turn hostile, he just splits.

Spell pages - Yes I too gave it much thought when I first undertook the want to make all of the pages similar in design and concept. No way to place a nice sized image of the spell in the infobox, that's why I went with the scroll, because it's right there every time any spell is opened for reading. But now folks have fiddled and now everything is a mess again. Joys of a wiki. To bad one can't import all of these pages for one's own personal use and then you could design them however you'd want. But a man can still dream though.......

Yes I do get a notification when talk has been initiated, but I don't get notified if someone's talking about me. If I get your drift. But you really are the only other contributor to this wiki that I've communicated with. I did post a few questions to some of the old school folks way back when, but I never had in-depth conversation with them. But if you post a reply on your page, which is cool by me, I don't get a notification as far as I know.

Achen Dell - yes I should have never placed the word "In" in front of the game symbol. Bad idea on my part but that's how one learns things. If it hasn't been fixed yet, I'll go back and make the corrections.

I saw you removed Ted from the creature page for "Hunter". I only put that there because the latest version of EE calls him Ted. I saw the discussion about it on Ted's page but if you were referencing the Creature page, there's no mention of Ted.

Charmed - Well I figured that if folks are gonna be charming everyone to see if they have any extra something to spill, then if they don't, why not make note of this. I get it that every now and then, some creature my have an extra little tidbit to reveal about a specific situation or in regards to the overall plot of the game. But I have to circle back to Islandking and how he kinda prodded me to explore a little deeper the origins and history of Balduran to help me produce a good write up of his last voyage. In fact it bums me out a little to see how much of what I created has been removed and/or altered. Spent a huge amount of time researching all of that and creating the pages for it. But this is an open source wiki and folks will fiddle. And like I said before, I don't use NI, I did it all the good ol' fashion way. Playing the game and exploring the different tangents and how they can provide that extra little bit of knowledge that wasn't evident before. And then transfering that knowledge to this site.

Best idea for a (redirecting) pagename for spell scrolls? - I truly think "Scroll of " ( which was in use on this site in some places before I showed up) is the best at conveying that it is an item. I've wrestled with this too and I just can't bring myself to having an appreciation for " (scroll)" as I don't like the parentheses either. Obviously the player knows it's a scroll when found in a lootable "container" or as a drop item, but when referencing it on a page, I always felt that the spell name by itself seemed weak and so I defaulted to the Scroll of Spell method myself. Really haven't thought about a new way to list a spell, but then I don't explore other sites to get ideas. Maybe I should. But there is a little voice inside my head that sez, "Don't do it, you'll just bugger up the mind more than it already is". Ignorance is bliss sometimes is it not?

My two cents:

I think infoboxes should list place after area. It's a logical progression. Area (Candlekeep) as per the map page World Map. Then Place (Candlekeep Catacombs) with an accompanying Location, when necessary, in parentheses, i.e., Candlekeep Catacombs (2nd level). And if someone finds it necessary to put coordinates (Blah), then coordinates too. But I do like your idea of having them linked to a separate page. I'm just not into information overload in a infobox or on the text segment of a page.

I'm currently updating the Caves page and I did remove the Appearances BG/BGEE Icon reference from the text section since it is already provided above the image in the infobox. Plus the "s" at the end of appearances kept dropping off and mucking up the look (that whole Visual Editor conundrum) and I couldn't figure out how to prevent that.

Sarevok and his "people" - Sarevok is a member of the Iron Throne and it is listed as his Organization in the infobox. That makes sense and no need to change it. But I do think that some of these folks he has under his "personal control", for example, Prat and Zhalimar Cloudwulfe, aren't really associated with the Iron Throne. When you read their respective letters, he addresses them in a manner that doesn't give one the impression that there is any connection to the Iron Throne by these NPC's. Tamoko also falls into this situation. Folks that are in the employ of Sarevok but not necessarily the Iron Throne. I mention this because when I created the pages for the six servants of Sarevok on the fifth floor of the Iron Throne Headquarters, some cat (can't remember his name at the moment) came along right behind me and added Iron Throne as an organization to their infoboxes. So I sent him a query as to why and what my reasoning was for them not to be associated with the Iron Throne, but I never got a response back (maybe I scared him off...Ha). Now someone like Tazok, yes he is employed by the Iron Throne, even though he may "report" directly to Sarevok. So I'll pick your brain for thoughts on this concept?

That's about all I have for now. Always a pleasure to talk with you and trade ideas. I've been incorporating a lot of your vision into the infoboxes. I really like to create new images for the wiki, probably the most fun I have with all of this right now. So that's where I'll continue top concentrate my efforts.

Oh and one other thing, do you know where the book "History of Waterdeep IV - Age III, The Bloody Reign of the Guildmasters" can be found? I've tried to acquire a copy of all 58 books available in the game and then finally read them, but I can't find that one. Maybe it's in the Ducal Palace, but I never get access to that place because I usually get bored with the game before I ever reach Chapter 7...ah came on laugh.

Have a great day and we'll be conversing again soon. Gonna be gone for awhile starting Friday but I'll be back.

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 21:14, September 4, 2019 (UTC)

CompleCCity – September 5
Only a single, quick reply on one topic – more will follow later: sorry, mate, but the journey to complete your collection (are you playing a bard, obsessed by tales?) will need you to advance even further than only to the Ducal Palace – apparently the book has fallen under censorship in Baldur's Gate and vicinity, and you have to travel all the way up to Dragonspear Castle or even visit Amn to find a copy. I've updated the article. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 07:26, September 5, 2019 (UTC)

CompleCCity – September 6
Continuation … okay, I'm trying to walk through this step-by-step (or something).

Good day to you, too!

I didn't want to urge you to respond – just noticed, you had been active and asked only to be sure. (And you were right with the meaning of my "ping" – thanks for clarifying that, Artimis (without a link this time).)

I fear, that random number thing for fe/male pronouns won't work here; at least it's far about my technical knowledge about wiki coding. ;) So I stay with neutrals (and use gw only where applicable).

Thinking about some template to style dialog sections since some time, myself, but not with high priority. I've started to move companion quotes to a subpage (/Quotes) – perhaps this would also be a solution for other, extensive pages.

About Ted: you placed his link (from where I removed it again) in the "Baldur's Gate" section of the creatures list – he's still there for the "Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition", the only section where he should be.

"[…] the origins and history of Balduran to help me produce a good write up of his last voyage. In fact it bums me out a little to see how much of what I created has been removed and/or altered […]"

- Artimis Grimshaw

That's sad to hear. Can you provide some more detailed information, especially about these removals? Or give links?

"'Don't do it, you'll just bugger up the mind more than it already is'. Ignorance is bliss sometimes is it not?"

- Artimis Grimshaw

How true.

About areas, places and such in infoboxes: the history of this is that Ike decided to put all info into one field, which is why "place" etc. count as "deprecated" parameters. On the thread I linked, however, there was the idea of – at least – including these fields again; the infobox coding then can care about the presentation. That's perhaps one of the next steps in expanding their functionality …

Removing the "appears in" (or similar) in infoboxes that already show icons, is the intended way, so you're completely right with doing this. :)

Hm … I've left out some topics where I didn't think they needed a reply (or didn't know what to say) – now this has become a rather short post. (I guess, Rik from below here welcomes this. ;)

One more thing: I have to admit that I replied to some of your comments about original 5-CD-version content (inventory), probably not to your liking. ;) (And yes, I do have access to a lot of versions of each game – see the image to the right; however, except for the latest or important ones, I always have to unzip them before being able to read them with NI.)

Have a not too stressing weekend with those pets! -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:24, September 6, 2019 (UTC)

Howdy pardner?
Just logged into Fandom to look over a few things out there at the IWD wiki, so I came over here to check on you. Doing fine? Playing something new or just the usual wiki work?

By the way, the talk page out here looks somewhat strange. Why are all the messages on a single huge thread? Rik Kirtaniya (talk) 17:42, September 1, 2019 (UTC)


 * Don't ask … ;)
 * Just trying to get my life in line; haven't spent time here for nearly two months and have returned only some days ago. Didn't even read your message on Beamdog's, yet. No, nothing new, just the "usual" wiki work. (And my life.)


 * I've noticed the high activity over there, but hadn't time to look after it. Good contributor?


 * But, what are you talkin' about? With this one, there's twelve threads on my talk – some of them a bit longer, admitted. I have a discussion (the one above) with some veteran contributor. Okay, perhaps not that veteran, but highly active before I arrived. Then he was away, but returned when I was away as mentioned above. Now we talk some general wiki things, its direction, PC stuff, updates and changes to infoboxes. (I've even linked an IWDW discussion for him. ;)


 * And you? Semester break? How's studies? (Uh, did we remain on one talk? I ping you on yours, just to be sure …) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 22:16, September 1, 2019 (UTC)

Ah, sorry for not replying sooner. I'd actually been distracted by a lot of things (actually, games!). But before I go on ranting...

Now about that huge thread thing, this is exactly what I was talking about, look at the post below me, it was directly branching off from this thread that I started and even appeared for editing when I was replying to your comment (people need to use the "Heading 2" format more often, alas!), so I put down a blue line THREE BLUE LINES below to barricade our talk from the rest. The message wall system in the IWD wiki is a lot more convenient actually.

Like this!



''See? Clean separate message groups is what we need here. ;) The long ones also get collapsed automatically and can be accessed on their own separate page as well. No confusion as to who is saying what to whom. ;)''

Well, now, as to my part, I'm having a pretty awesome vacation between two semesters. Been trying out a lot of games in this hiatus, which is what is keeping me distracted from everything else. The best I liked is Sid Meier's Civilization VI. Truly amazing game. If you are into strategy and tactical brain-work, definitely try it out.

Other than that, I've played a bit of Fallout New Vegas. Went upto Nipton and blasted the crap out of those murderous legionnaires, and then got distracted by other games, as is usual with me. I also modded my BG2 install with the intention of trying to finish it finally, but didn't even get close to start playing it.

The latest thing I've been doing is playing Oxygen Not Included. It's a real-time-with-pause space-survival, colony management game, and I'm having lots of fun with it. Another game Crosscode is pretty awesome too.

That's almost about it. Didn't study a lot this month cause I'll be doing it anyways a week or so later, and you don't get a long vacation every month. ;)

By the way, I hope everything's going all right for you in real life? You sounded somewhat tired (or was it just bored?) in your last message.

And yes, there's been some contributor(s?) working at the IWDW with a fairly large number of articles, though I am still waiting for a reply to my message on their wall. I had thought about returning to finish up the spell articles, but right now, I'm too engaged with my games to even bother. XD

Rik Kirtaniya (talk) 03:51, September 5, 2019 (UTC)


 * Ha! I've removed those "THREE BLUE LINES" again – no need to put up "barricades", here. ;) (But I've also moved that post up to the thread where it belongs; and added subheadings to that one.)
 * I'm just an old-school person, so I'm attached to good old talk pages …


 * I'm very familiar with what you're saying about e.g. FNV and BG-modding. :) Rest of the games is either not my type or I haven't even heard of them.


 * I'll use a more private place to talk about my life. See ya! -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:33, September 6, 2019 (UTC)

Questions
1 - Floors go up while levels go down...correct? So buildings have "floors" while dungeons have "levels".

2 - Is it possible for you to remove the term "Floors" from the area infobox in the layout section? That term is really unnecessary if floors go up and levels go down. It should just read as "Layout".

3 - The "Return to Candlekeep" quest shouldn't be considered a "quest" since it is a designed progression of the game. Sure you can sneak past all of the monsters and NPC's on all three levels and return to Baldur's Gate, but if you don't know this as a player, than the game won't continue until you exit the caves. Plus your only "reward" is now you get to complete Chapter 7. I look at this in the same light as the Drow Underground in SOA. If you don't figure out how to get out, the game doesn't continue to the next Chapter. To me a quest is: get a request to accomplish something, complete it, and get a reward (Gold and/or a magical item, XP, and a reputation increase).

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 02:09, September 5, 2019 (UTC)

And a little tidbit about me. I was born on Halloween. So we both have B-days in October.

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 02:11, September 5, 2019 (UTC)


 * First, the area infobox is the one I've made the least changes to, IIRC. (Was focussing on creatures, items and – to a lesser extent – spells and abilities.) I'd prefer to defer that for some point of time when I'm ready for that infobox. However, those templates are not protected – everyone can edit them (which I would monitor intensely, though). So, perhaps you …
 * On the other hand, the games almost always use the term "level" for each, so a different approach might be better.


 * As "Return to Candlekeep" is a valid journal entry and is handled by the Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition itself as a quest, I don't see why we shouldn't follow this.
 * To me a "quest" is everything that's noted in the journal (and gets a header in the EE).
 * However, I'm not sure about it really being handled as a "quest" (and currently can't check this in-game – no savegame near that point), but there's still the category:Journal entries with no quest (I created).


 * Were you a trick or a treat? (And I suppose, you knew this question will arise when telling that.) ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:50, September 6, 2019 (UTC)

Sendai
Sendai is unique in that she conjurs up 7 copies of herself, each with ver different stats (cleric, fighter, theif, etc.). How would you recommend documenting that? Would one use 7 redux boxes on her page, or maybe put the boxes on the page dealing with that battle?

GorionsWard (talk) 13:38, September 7, 2019 (UTC)


 * The best page for it would be the related quest, Sendai's lair, I think. Which yet doesn't exist.
 * On the other hand, they are creatures of their own … but eight infoboxes on one page?
 * Then there's the issue of two being the same class, Cleric / Mage …


 * If you want to do the work, you could – for now – create subpages to Sendai:


 * Sendai/Cleric
 * Sendai/Fighter
 * Sendai/Assassin (or Sendai/Thief?)
 * Sendai/Berserker
 * Sendai/Fighter/thief (which would appear as a subpage to Sendai/Fighter – not ideal; on the other hand, she looks like a thief, not as the kensai she has as her kit in this form)
 * Sendai/Mage
 * Sendai/Cleric/mage (again the sub-sub-page thing)
 * Some need for or confuse templates at the top. Perhaps additional notes about her visual appearance.


 * Use the full infobox for them. With some tweaks, these pages than could be transcluded on other pages. If there's need, they can be changed to the reduced IB later.
 * Perhaps the content will be moved some day; or the whole pages. But we would have the info for a start.


 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:37, September 7, 2019 (UTC)

Saving Throws
Hello... I'm working on the Saving Throws page, which has a couple of "odd" comments.

"When a creature has a saving throw score of 20 (the worst possible, the engine doesn't allow higher values), they will auto-fail to save, similar to how attacks auto-hit a helpless or time stopped creature, both situations actually bypass the whole ST/THAC0 system. In this case, any save modifier less than 20 is ignored, but, a save modifier of 20 or more will override it and always succeed."

I used EE keeper to set my save vs. poison to 20. When I go into the game, my character record correctly reflects my score as "14 (-6)" (since 20-6=14). I then let The Ravager hit me with his ranged attack (which has a 33% chance to poison), but I still see messages such as "Save vs. Death: 19", which I shouldn't see if the remark was referring to a creature's base score. I could try changing my base score to 26 so that my effective score is 20. I have no doubt that would fail every time, but I'm not aware of an effect that offers users a 20+ bonus to their saving throw, are you?

If you're not aware of such large bonuses, I wonder if it has any practical application? Should I keep it around?

GorionsWard (talk) 17:17, September 9, 2019 (UTC)

I have to admit that this article, together with THAC0, belongs to those I never have paid much attention to. As you said yourself: makes the head hurt.

I also have to admit – though indeed knowing a lot of things regarding Near Infinity and many other game mechanics – that I'm not really familiar with the whole rolling thing (and often don't understand my own combat log), and in those cases simply ignore it. 🙄

To me it appears as if the article takes some theoretical things into consideration, things that will not occur in-game, but are part of the mechanics or rules. I'd say, do your rewriting and then we'll see if there's info that has to be restored. I think, the page will benefit from this anyway. (You can create a draft in your sandbox first, which we could discuss then.)

Some tips for testing:
 * add the following lines to your  (see console for more info) – for the most complete combat log (though it's really large and cluttered, then):

SetPrivateProfileString('Game Options','Extra Combat Info','1') SetPrivateProfileString('Game Options','Extra Feedback','1')


 * try to fiddle around with NI and change the ravager's item abilities (but make a backup before if the two items already are in the game's override folder; and don't forget to delete them again later)
 * you could also use NI to change the e.g. ST bonus of your equipment, and give you a ring of protection +20 (with an additional regeneration ability); see the note about a backup above
 * if you can't wear such a ring due to other equipment, right-click it with NI, "add copy of", chose a item-filename and edit that one; this then isn't in the  and it won't be checked if you're wearing magical armor (you'd have to use the console or EE Keeper to add it to your inventory)

Looking forward to your work. (Though I might have not much time or many opportunities to give feedback or answer questions in the next couple days.) -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:06, September 9, 2019 (UTC)

Oops... i just saw your reply. 8-| As always, feel free to modify my changes. I'm curious about your reactions to the writing style section after reading my content regarding bonuses being both +/-. I don't feel I have the right to alter that section, but it seems like a good idea (going forward) to recommend that folks just use the terms bonus/penalty and omit the sign.

GorionsWard (talk) 19:51, September 9, 2019 (UTC)

Too many changes to check in detail. Overall, it looks good.

The "- bonus" and "+ penalty" may still be used in infoboxes. That passage might need a better distinction between scores and rolls and where/when the bonus/penalty is applied to, with examples.

I've edited the lead – not sure about having modified only old content or changes that were applied by you; see for yourself.

I've also inserted (commented out) original descriptions from the games' manuals and P'n'P source material, to have some text to be used as examples or inspiration for further edits.

And I've finally moved the page to proper capitalization (away from header style) and singular – something I had intended to do since a very long time …

Can't say how often I will be here from this afternoon on (just now, a couple hours left) until next Monday; see ya! -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:22, September 10, 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look.

I'm not sure how you prefer to work. I can either bring up suggested changes and leave it up to you to decide if and how they should be implemented, or I can attempt the change myself and let you revert or alter it. Unless you have a preference, I'll attempt changes and let you react.

I think the intro looks better but i wanted to bring up a couple of points to think about. I know the original article talked about a "source" but I found that term slightly confusing. For example if an enemy mage casts fireball, is the source the mage or the fireball itself? To avoid that, i tried using the term "effect". While this has the slight advantage of being consistent with the code, it's still ambiguous since it can be confused with "status effect" (which doesn't include damage). I've attempted to clarify both terms.

The following statements you made got me thinking, "... rolls a d20 dice that may be modified by optional bonuses or penalties attached to the effect's source. The result of this roll must meet or exceed the creature's applicable saving throw score, including their own modifiers ..." It made me wonder how the game does it:
 * 1) roll >= modified target
 * 2) modified roll >= target
 * 3) modified roll >= modified target

Mathematically, any of these would work, but each would produce different feedback. For example, i removed most of my solo guy's gear which left him with a -3 bonus to death (vs. the ravager's +2 penalty). I then went to meet the ravager (we're getting to be good friends) and let him chunk daggers at me. [It's not a healthy relationship.]
 * If the game used the first approach, my unmodified rolls would be compared to a modified target of 3-3+2=2
 * If the game used the 2nd approach, my modified rolls would be compared to an unmodified target of 3
 * For the last approach, if the target's modifiers are applied to the roll and the effect's modifiers are applied to the score, my modified rolls would be compared to a modified target of 3+2=5.

I was lucky, because his very first dagger throw connected and resulted in the feedback of "Save vs. Death: 2", which implies the first approach (since the other approaches wouldn't have saved on a 2). The first approach makes sense, considering that the character record also modifies the score; why have the character record modify scores but have the feedback modify rolls? Even if the actual comparison operation uses some hidden approach, when it comes to the user explanation, I'm thinking it makes more sense to be consistent with the UI.

To reflect this point of view, I modified the into and tweaked the bonus/penalty discussion in the body.

GorionsWard (talk) 17:08, September 10, 2019 (UTC)

My computer has been randomly hanging for the last several months and i've just ignored it. I'm going to reinstall Windows to see if that resolves the problem. if i disappear, that's why. in regards to my last round of edits, i'm sure whatever you choose to do will be fine. :)

GorionsWard (talk) 12:41, September 11, 2019 (UTC)

I hate wikiing from a phone, so just one short thing: I've no problem with you applying your changes to that page and after a week I see the results - if you have no issues with me making further modifications (if larger, then not without discussion). ;) -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:54, September 11, 2019 (UTC)

Gazetteer
I've had my copy of Descent into Avernus pre-ordered for weeks. And there is a section called "Baldur's Gate Gazetter"! Source: Someone who shared a preview of content on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KatoKatonian/status/1169317646698975232

But, yeah, I still do not know in which video where I'd heard that phrase first.

I hope you are well!

CalOkand (talk) 19:07, September 12, 2019 (UTC)