User talk:CompleCCity

"Are you talkin' to me? Are YOU talkin' to ME?"

- Marl

Ike's opinion
Three things to consider:

The BGEE symbol isn’t very distinguishable from classic BG symbol, or ToB, they’re similar skull style. (btw the BGIIEE icon you used should stand for classic SoA instead)

How large the symbols will be? From the samples you made, they’re a bit small (especially for tablet users), but will the larger ones fit well into IB?

Don’t forget our old friends: BGIIEE:SoA, BGIIEE:ToB, how to separate those campaigns with icons?

I guess this game is a very special case compared to other game series which can easily be transferred into icons, it’s only getting more complicated after EEs were introduced.

Islandking&#9812;♕&#9817; 10:15, October 27, 2017 (UTC)

Faalagorn's opinion
I actually like the icons! They are more clearer for me, especially when grouped together near each oher, easier to read than existing text. The size is easily tweakable, as MediaWiki handles resizing the images. The tooltips are still labeled BG:EE and so on, so it should be clear, and if someone blocks the images (globally on browser or via some ad-blocker rule), the alt text should display + the link still points to the same attributes. There may indeed be confusion about the vanilla and EE editions, though all the campaigns did get an unique icon – including both Black Pits. For mobile, there is actually a more severe issue with the existing et. al. templates – they are incorrectly parsed and when I tried to access for example the companions page on my phone, it is showing an extra newlines in and after the template, each time the template is used. I can attach a screenshot later on. Seeing we never got any report about this bug here though, may mean we don't have much mobile views anyway, at least among the contributors :). Also, it should be kept in mind that icons are often used in such places, be it other wikis or our  template.

P.S. Since I was AWOL for the past few weeks or so, I never had occasion to welcome you CompleCCity; welcome on board, nice to have new editors in here :). It may take me a while to take a look of what has changed here, and I'm currently having a break from playing BG:EE (planning to return soon-ish though), so feel free to point me on things if some kind of opinion is needed from my side in the meantime!

—Faalagorn☎/✓ 15:45, October 27, 2017 (UTC)

Ike's opinion (2)
Some candidates I’ve extracted from NI:

Update:

1,  And you can extract classic icons without glow for classic campaigns, icons should be around LOGOXX.bam

2, 3,

4,

2, We also need to cover cases such as Wand of Frost, where "BG" there actually stands for BGTotSCBGEESoDBP, "BGII" stands for BGIIToBBGIIEEBPII. We might need customized some icons here, ideas?

3, Also need to consider pages with different content between pre-EE and EE, like Poison Weapon, not a good example but that’s the gist, and many spells function differently in between versions. If you have the skills in image editing, you can cut the lower portion which contains Enhanced Edition in

and make it into icon to stand for EE. For classic versions, might crop Baldur’s Gate from

. Or you have better substitutes ?

Islandking&#9812;♕&#9817; 05:37, October 28, 2017 (UTC)

cCC's opinion
Thanks for the welcome, Faalagorn! And feel welcome yourself on my talk page!

Actually I intended to answer right after you, but then came Ike – and presented stuff to work with already, despite having so many concerns … :)

Let me tell you, I share these concerns. But I also think, there are ways to evade them.

The size I used in my examples on your talk pages (see User talk:Islandking or User talk:Faalagorn) is 14px, which – for a circular icon – would mirror the regular font size in height and width, though reduced per  to (I think) 80%. Have in mind that this is the width of the icon – non-circular ones, like the one used for BGII:EE, have then a larger height than 14 pixels.
 * About icon size

Surely we can use 16px instead, or even more – that depends on how distinguishable the icons are in the end.

I took my examples from those icons used in the userbox templates. You find a good overview of them on Buttercheese's user profile.
 * About icon choice

In the classic games' files there unfortunately is no LOGO*.bam, but they are contained in other files (can't recall the exact name right now). I've already extracted the one from BG, which is smaller than some already upped icon here, but I think that one is scaled. For TotSC there is no official and unique icon, we have to use the one from the official guide (already used in the userbox).

Which leads us to …

A note to Faalagorn: I only can speak from a classic point of view – I don't own the enhanced editions, yet.
 * About differences between games and add-ons, and abbreviations

Okay, we have BG and TotSC, and for certain things we have to distinguish between them. Also we have SoA and ToB, and have to distinguish between them. There's no need of discussion about SoD, BP1 and BP2. But: Do we have to distinguish between BG:EE and TotSC:EE? And are there any differences between SoA:EE and ToB:EE? Or could those simply be summarized as BG(2):EE? To elaborate this further: if an item only appears in TotSC, does it then generally appear in BG:EE? If a creature only appears in ToB, does it then appear in the general BGII:EE? Or only in ToB:EE? (Is there still a choice between both campaigns when starting the game?)

A list, a row of icons looks better than that listing of letters in your second topic, Ike. ;)

In general we should keep away from this. Customizing copyrighted images from the game files might break copyright laws (not sure about this), and also might lead to contributors thinking "ah, that's not the original file, I have to re-up this …"
 * About icon customization

But chosing the icon from a game guide already is some sort of customization. And altering satuation, brightness and contrast of the cBG and BG:EE icons might be necessary to make them more distinguishable. Perhaps the same for SoA and SoA:EE …

(Yes, the glow should be removed as well …)

So much about my thoughts, yet. Will come back to this later …

I'm not sure, I've understood your third topic, Ike. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:59, October 28, 2017 (UTC)

A quick reply from Ike
We don’t have to separate BGEE and BGEE:TotSC because the content are merged together and can be freely accessed anytime in BGEE. (eg. From Nashkel to Durlag Tower)

However we have to separate SoA, ToB, BGIIEE:SoA, BGIIEE:ToB because as already mentioned, these campaigns are NOT transferable, which is different from the above case (take a look at some "Items in XXX" categories)

No, I’d insist keeping EE icons glow and classic icons not glow because that’s the way to distinguish them. Eg. classic SoA’d be the same as BGIIEE:SoA just without glow, etc. Also as you might’ve noticed, BGEE ones are glowing red while BGIIEE are yellow, which are the additional ways to show differences in visual.

Islandking&#9812;♕&#9817; 11:34, October 28, 2017 (UTC)

Update (1) from Ike
My friend has helped me made some desired icons, all are cropped from NI extracted files. I’ve updated the tables above to reflect some changes, what’s left are classic icons.

A side note: once icons replace the texts, we’ll have to use BGII:SoA+BGII:ToB, two icons to stand for classic BGII; BGIIEE:SoA+BGIIEE:ToB both to stand for BGIIEE. But I guess that’s the same way as BGEE+BG:SoD, and SoD is actually a part of BGEE, if you consider BGEE as BGIIEE:SoA, then BG:SoD is its BGIIEE:ToB. Now it makes me hungry for a real expansion to BGIIEE which tells us what happens after the throne battle, there’s already a mod for it :-)

Islandking&#9812;♕&#9817; 03:15, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Just a note
I'm working on the classic icons, but as there's no LOGO.bam it takes some time to find the best one … -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:03, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Re: … now in person.
Yea no worries.

I'm new to this wiki editing thing, but since I like it a lot I thought I might as well contribute with some images on this playthorough :)

As for adding other minor missing things, do you have some good "template pages" to check how stuff should be formatted?

It seems many pages have their own style in formats etc.

(not sure im doing this talk page correct either, learning by doing, right? :)

Henkoba (talk) 12:07, July 6, 2018 (UTC)

Edit undone
about that victor ring, you could've put that item code there instead of deleted lol Joeyliciouz (talk) 09:01, July 18, 2018 (UTC)

Question
Because you're an admin here. You have the POWAA! :)

I don't feel like having a certain admin get pissy with me on another wiki. See recent edits on my talk page.

I look to you as a person with a great deal more experience with coding than myself. You understand the rules and consequences of how different styles of coding impact wiki. You know the right "terms".

Can you explain to me the justification for and for not removing redirect links inside an article? Other than just personal preference.
 * 1. In my understanding, you create an article. Something causes changes to the name. I'd rather not go and change a hundred places to the new name. I use a redirect to the new name. I can use the new name or I can use the old name and both point to the correct location.
 * 2. Common other spellings, confusing page names, or other locations can be pointed to the correct page. The little brown mouse points to the correct location missions page - subheader The little brown mouse.
 * 3. Rather than type out a huge link to a page, I can use a redirect to make my coding simple. Instead of typing The quick brown fox jumps mission/Sub-Mission/additional sub-mission/typing stuff to make this really long/and even longer I can type Brown Fox which redirects to the correct location.

To me it just seems to be personal preference or potentially a specific wiki rule that was enacted. "We always use shortened links of two words with a redirect because it makes coding much simpler looking. No need to type and make large mistakes." No such rule has ever been mentioned or pointed to.

Telling me "Redirects exist for a reason" and then not stating that reason is stupid and frustrating. There is no point in even asking for clarification. I've been down this road. It looks exactly like this is personal preference of a certain admin. Trouble is, that if that's an unofficial rule, it isn't even being used consistently. I find places with redirects, places without redirects, places with both, etc.

It's just lazy to me to not correct mistakes and/or make changes as you find them. You are already there making changes, fix them as you find them. I find a redirect that ISN'T being used consistently so I correct it. If it piques my curiosity, I'll see where else this happens and correct all locations. I didn't make the problem, but I'll make sure it's fixed in all places. I now know that it isn't a problem anymore for anyone else ever and I can sleep at night happy. :)

Heck, if I created the problem in the first place, then I should go out and make the 500 changes to the new name and get rid of the redirect. I can use the redirect as a stop gap until I can fix them. Or perhaps, I don't create a redirect because I have though of another solution. Or I ask an admin to change the name without a redirect. So many possibilities...

Can you shred some link on redirects for me? Thanks for your help. --GS877 (talk) 20:16, July 23, 2018 (UTC)

Hi. And feel personally welcome, as well! (In addition to that bot message with my name.) :)

On this wiki it's common to reply on the other user's talk page, but I prefer to keep one discussion on one page – easier to follow. It's also common to use lines instead of indentation to separate single comments, as you see. ;) (By the way: easier to write the comment, if one not always has to think of the colons.) Don't care about the sections above – have to clean up this mess, anyway.

I shall "shred" you some link? Uhm, not sure if I understand you right, here … You don't seem as a person not confidant with the internet to me, so you might probably find the Wikia's help for redirects on your own. I'm sure, Wikipedia has something similar. You could also look at MediaWiki, though Wikia's version of it is outdated.

I won't go searching the MEW guides now for something regarding redirects, but at least I can say that it's the first time for me to see something like that notice on this template.

I haven't "studied" redirect handling. I usually edit wikis using good sense, not hour-long reading of guidelines. In most cases, they contain the same things, anyway. (MEW, however, is a little different. ;) )

Okay, my non-scholar common sense understanding of redirects, based on editing on at least 35 wikis since 2011 and being admin on 4 since years: As said, this is my understanding of redirects. If you go into research, you might find that I'm wrong with some things, or at least in the minority, even out-of-date.
 * 1) You're wrong. Good practice would be to change every link after a page move to the new name. The redirect (admins, by the way, can suppress the creation of a redirect when doing a move) will practically become useless after this. If it's too much, there are tools and bots for such things. Standard practice for me: 1) move a page/file; 2) edit every link to the former one. And personally I don't appreciate people on "my" wikis who do not do this.
 * 2) "The little brown mouse"? Uhm … *confused* Valid redirects:
 * 3) singular variants of page names that – as an overview page – use plural (local (bad) example: Class; unfortunately there's really much to do on this wiki);
 * 4) plural variants of page names that cannot simply be constructed by adding a plural-s at the end of a link (example: Dwarves should be a redirect to Dwarf);
 * 5) your "common other spellings", common other names, expected names, commonly confused things, and such;
 * 6) if the former name of a moved article was justified and will be searched for by people, then the redirect has to be kept;
 * 7) single items that in the future might get an own article, but for now are only collected on an overview page (a good local example would be every single status effect, but those haven't been created yet – neither as complete article, nor as redirect; my, so much to do here);
 * 8) these might be kept if one day it's decided to not make single articles for them;
 * 9) there certainly are some more …

Most of the above redirects are for the convenience of the irregular contributor to a wiki. Into that category has your #3 to be counted as well. Random visitors don't know of a page move, or if the exact link of what they're looking for hides under a subsection's subsection. They type "dwarves" because they don't know that the article uses singular. And similar reasons.

The contributor familiar with a certan wiki, however, may indeed use the direct links, even go "fixing" them where redirects are used.

Unless it's not the "for now a redirect, complete article perhaps later" type. Because then it would double the work: switching the redirect now directly to the overview page's subsection, only to switch it back later, when the article has been created? No …

I guess, your recent changes belong to the latter category. If it's an item/location/creature/character/etc. directly from the game, use the item/etc. name for it, not an overview page's subsection. I can't tell, however, if that's the same reason somebody else had in mind. ;) Do you think I would become a satisfying answer if I asked why my edit on the stub template was reverted? I doubt it. So, I will think twice before spending time, effort and motivation on that wiki – can quickly become de-motivating.

What I can tell about those weapon mods redirects: the page is that large, that section linking doesn't work correctly. I always have to scroll down some headings until the destination's reached. No matter if I use the re- or your direct link.

Hm, guess this isn't exactly what you expected. I mostly gave you some personal view on redirects, and told next to nothing about the actual events. Your concerns. Sorry. Wanted to reply, but am a bit tired. (It's half past one in the morning for me.) Maybe I'll revisit this tomorrow and add something.

Another thing: I think I'm not half experienced as you think when it comes to coding and such. I know some things, but e.g. writing a completely new template – hours! Fixing that armor infoboxes table: several attempts, still contains some redundant code, and yet doesn't please my eyes. So, no … ;) I'm perhaps a bit friendlier than other persons, though. :D And I give replies and explanations.

And: I completely support your point of view on that SW, just hadn't anything useful to add to the debate. And personally I perhaps would act indeed a little more renegade on that, but I also didn't have the pleasure of a debate with some wikia staff, yet.

'til tomorrow or so. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 23:46, July 23, 2018 (UTC)

Hey CompleCCity,

I was trying to write down thoughts without having the correct terms in a flurry of emotions. My mind flows onto the page, words and thoughts mix together, and items are changed out on accident. I fixed the "Shred some links" to what I really meant - Shed some light. :)

These are a little bit out of order. My mind was flowing... :)

Item #2. The little brown mouse. Just a throw away phrase for an example. I could have put anything. I was trying to do an example link. I should have done what you did for the dwarf / dwarves.

I create a page called The Little Brown Mouse mission. I decide that I'm going to instead make a dedicated Missions page and list the missions with sub-headers. I create a sub-header Missions. However, as I am not an admin, I can't delete a page and/or I can't rename a page WITHOUT a redirect. I decide instead to move all content to the mission subheader location, remove the text from The Little Brown Mouse, and replace that text with the following redirect #REDIRECTMissions.

I do this because as you stated, not everyone will know to go to the Missions page. Some will search for The Little Brown Mouse instead and the redirect will point to the correct location on the page.

Item #1. I am TOTALLY in agreement with what you said. I was only stating that you had the option to leave a redirect so that you wouldn't have to do the work. I think it is lazy and bad form to not do the job the right way. I made the change, I should understand the ramifications, I should make all of the fixes. If it is going to be 1,000 fixes, perhaps before I make the change using a redirect, I should understand am I making the best choice.

I got hit hard for going back and changing/removing links that pointed to redirects on pages. I put the correct location for the link. Someone else in the past instead of doing the correct edits and fixing the links, instead left the links pointing to the redirects. To use my example, every place that The Little Brown Mouse is used should be changed to Missions. I can used special:whatlinkshere to find all of the places that use the redirect and correct them all.

I found problems with links that weren't there, links that were broken, incorrect links, etc NOT involving the redirect links. I just fixed those redirect links as I was already there fixing problems. NO! YOU CAN'T DO THAT! REDIRECTS ARE USED FOR A REASON. (Um, yes I know that. I'm fixing a redirect that is being used poorly.) NO! You are DOING IT WRONG. (Um again, no, there are multiple uses for redirect. I'm just doing a best practices and methods. There is no "right". Just degrees of better or worse.) NO! YOU ARE WRONG. (fine. moving on.)

Of the 6 sub-items you've listed for Item #2, I've worked with all of them/seen all of them in use. I understand each of those reasons and why each has a valid place.

Best practice is to have the correct link in use in all valid places. Mistakes do happen though. If possible, remove problems or create solutions so that the problem won't happen again.

"Hm, guess this isn't exactly what you expected." - No, you gave me exactly what I was looking for. A detailed in-depth discussion from an experienced user about redirects. Several points of view and multiple examples. Exactly what I was hoping for. I am using redirects correctly and I understand the different ways they can be used/the consequences for using in each situation.

When I condense your writing above, I get exactly my position on the subject - Redirects have a purpose. You need to think about how and why you use them. You shouldn't leave clutter and a half finished job. Do the best job you can. If you don't know the answer, you can always ask for help.

I went in to fix other peoples mess and I got my hand slapped hard for fixing obvious mistakes. Someone else did a piss poor job it bothers me to see it. Bothers me to no end. I try again a different way to fix the mistakes and again the slap but this time with a punch. Next time I try, I'll get thrown out of a 10-story window. :) I forgot, plus the slap and the punch once I reach the ground from the fall. :)

I've just given up on it. If he can live with the bad job of others, then he is the face of the wiki and he can live with the consequences. I'll finish off my edits for the fourth game and then I'm done.

- - - -

You know the terms and have years of background. I have only edited wiki's for 6 months. I had to teach myself everything by example and painful learning. I learned A WHOLE bunch but without the context and terminology, I stumble in the dark for the correct wording.

- - - -

Thank you for letting me know about the SW page. I think it should be fully staff supported and finished or get rid of it. The half done bugs me. I will say that the other admin is very reasonable and has helped me a number of times in the past. If she says that there is not much that can be done, I trust that the options are limited. There just isn't the support from enough editors to take it over. Because it is a pretty sedate wiki now, and there are few editors left, there isn't much of a popular uprising that can take place. We got three guys, two paperclips, and a dozen donuts. We will rule the WORLD! Wait, we have 11 donuts left. Kevin ate one. THANKS ALOT KEVIN! :)

- - - -

Thank you for your time and help. Sometimes it just helps to talk with a logical and complex thinking person who understands the intricate nature of wikis. There isn't always a simple answer. You have to learn and be willing to learn new ways. Not be close minded and stuck. There are multiple ways to do things and even if I think I have the best solution, someone else may have a better one. There are some pretty clever ways to do things. I learn new stuff all the time and try to apply it when applicable. --GS877 (talk) 01:22, July 24, 2018 (UTC)

Something in the water again this morning, GS877? ;)

I plan on giving you some longer response to this and the following. A reply you deserve, not as that short one I wrote when I was offline. See you. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 09:14, August 5, 2018 (UTC)

Hey CompleCCity,

Nothing in the water. Nothing at all. Pay no attention to the water. I don't see any water. What water? :)

I really dislike 2 sets of rules. REALLY DISLIKE. To the point of fervor. I let it get the best of me sometimes.

Rather than start an edit war (which is against the rules), I did what the rules state, speak to an admin. This isn't a hard call to make. Someone is making valid corrections and an admin is undoing them based on his personal preferences and not the wiki rules. Personal preferences that don't follow a cohesive set of rules. These made up personal rules in fact contradict themselves at times. Just sloppy and messy. Overly aggressive, threatening behavior, coarse language when none is needed. Acting like a petulant child. "My TOYS! MINE! YOU CAN'T TOUCH THEM!" Fine, I'll go play over here. "NO! THOSE ARE MINE TOOOO!" :)

Undoing a redirect fix just to undo a redirect fix in this case is a stupid personal preference. When 150 pages use the correct page name and 5 don't, then you fix the 5 others. What he didn't see was that I made that correction to 4 other pages that he didn't fix. He's even sloppy in his reverting. :)

I do details. That's what I do well. I dislike half finished. If I find an issue, I should fix it rather than leave it broken for someone else.

As for a longer reply from before, I "deserve" nothing. I was glad you were able to get me a response and that was enough. :) I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me about these issues. Even if we were to disagree on a subject (which we don't), you are thoughtful, concise, respectful, and detailed in your responses. You don't resort to game playing, petty behavior, or coarse language.

Thanks again for your help and kind words. I really do appreciate those people that are able to help and guide me. --GS877 (talk) 20:38, August 5, 2018 (UTC)

I swear, I'm not starting to edit here...
Hey CompleCCity,

I went to the main page and I found an error. I know, I know. Stop looking for things to fix... :)

"See the Helping out section on this page if you don't where to start editing."

I copied the sentence above from the welcome box.

There is a missing word. I'm assuming that no one saw it before because of that optical illusion your mind plays where a missing word or double word at the end of a sentence and the beginning of another sentence. Your brain just fills in the missing word or edits out the double word. Do an internet search for "A bird in the the bush illusion" to see a picture of the illusion. :)

The word "know" is missing from the sentence.

"See the Helping out section on this page if you don't know where to start editing."

As it is locked for admin fixing only, could you add the missing word? --GS877 (talk) 07:39, July 24, 2018 (UTC)


 * Oops, I almost never visit the main page ... ;)


 * Sorry, I will reduce activity and communication to a minimum, as of today I have only very restricted internet access. And editing here via phone is very inconvenient. See you next month or so. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:57, July 24, 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you CompleCCity. See you when you get back. :) --GS877 (talk) 05:51, July 25, 2018 (UTC)

Class Page Info
Looking to get a consensus here. Something I was thinking about while cleaning up the XP tables for the classes in BG2+. Since the pages for the classes are split between pre-BG2 and BG2+, I think any icons/references to games from the other page should be removed. For example, on the XP chart for BG2 version of the Ranger class, there are logos marking what the XP cap was for BG1, BG1EE, TotSC, SoD, and BP. However, I'm of the mind that since this page was specifically for BG2+ rangers, that info is effectively useless and shouldn't be there. I forgot to ask this before, but since OmniOptic was going through and making some adjustments, it sparked my memory. Do you have a preference on this? Daft inquisitor (talk) 22:01, July 26, 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm currently somewhat limited regarding extensive research on the wiki - see above and my profile.
 * If you think that information is redundant here, belongs on another page and does exist there, then feel free to make adjustments.
 * On the other hand: would there be a good way of merging BG1 and BG2 classes? This would, however, need a look into their history and why the decision was made to split them in the first place. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 20:14, July 27, 2018 (UTC)


 * That's fair. I'm reaching out to some wiki old-guard who was here during an apparent merge between this wiki, and a BG2 wiki. Seems the class splits happened due to the wiki merge. If he says there was no good reason to split them, I'll see how much trouble it would be to just merge the pages together and clean them up. Anyway, just wanted to give you a heads-up on that, no need to reply. I'll update you again as things progress. Daft inquisitor (talk) 21:41, July 27, 2018 (UTC)


 * Dutchman, I see. Might indeed react to a talk page message. But perhaps I'm back earlier than expected, too, so I can look deeper into the matter ... Anyway, make your thing! ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 17:53, July 28, 2018 (UTC)


 * Say, Inquisitor, if we redo the class pages, would there be one favored class of yours which with you would like to begin with? The inquisitor, perhaps? ;)
 * If we are to introduce a new concept for the articles, a sandbox might be a good start. I thought of creating a User:CompleCCity/Thief, but if the thief is something you'd like to do, I can choose something else. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:54, July 30, 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't really have any preferences one way or the other. I'm working on some other projects at the moment though, so it may be another few days until I get around at doing an example page merge -- trying to get some stuff sorted for real-life D&D first. :-p Daft inquisitor (talk) 04:28, August 2, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Warning
I don't respond well to threats. Have you ever met a single person who did? Bamboonga (talk) 01:19, August 12, 2018 (UTC)


 * Consider that a warning. Perhaps my tone wasn't friendly enough, I should have ended that sentence with "be respectful and polite in the future." -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:19, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

Oh Sage CompleCCity...
Oh Sage CompleCCity, speaketh the words of TRUTH AND UNDERSTANDING!

That admin on that other wiki is out of control. Absolutely out of control. Totally violating established MOS rules, just changing things that are rules of thumb, threatening to ban me for edit warring - Which I'm not doing. I'm undoing edits that violate the community rules.

Speak the words to calm this troubled soul. Before I break some shit... :)

Yes, the single curse word above is totally required and much less than the multisyllable half a paragraph of venomous bile that I want to say but the screen would melt. It really would literally melt because it is that caustic. It's such foul words...:)

Going to bed now. Before I really get worked up... --GS877 (talk) 09:19, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

I've followed that discussion – not the related edits, though.

One thing I noticed shortly before was that his manner of expression also can be found in his edit summaries, and not directly addressed at some person he might currently not like. It's his general way of making comments. Let me think … If I remember right, I have (on another wiki) undone edits by people simply for using foul language in their edit summary. I mean, you don't want to read "f***" on somebody's talk page, but in an article's history it's okay? So much for that …

Regarding your current edit-no-war (what about "Make edits, not war!" ;) and – as mentioned – with no insight into the actual matter besides what I could read from your talk pages, the "sage"'s thoughts:
 * I guess, E. will reply in an as neutral way as she did before (still have to realize her gender ;) – that's diplomatics.
 * I can understand T. to a certain extent. If on a wiki I stumble about something I don't like, I don't care about "established rules of thumb" – I change it. Usually I don't go into research if such rules exist. If then somebody tells me, that way was how it's done on countless articles, I'll respond with "then I'll gonna change it on all of them". Of course I'm open to a discussion about it.
 * Following this, I think you're a bit stressing that "rule of thumb" thing in this discussion. On the other hand, such has been topics before, in talks with T. and E. – so my point of view might be wrong, regarding that specific wiki.
 * I don't agree with your tone and wording in that latest talk with T. (Neither do I with his!) I mean, "unless you […], do not change" in the opening sentence, followed by a "I'm not here to lecture you" in a later response … "Do not change" sounds like a clear "order" to me. And of course you're not there to give an admin orders. But neither is he. You're an equal member of the community, and admins in general aren't there to give an order, only to keep it up.
 * But I completely agree with your feelings about him and that it indeed looks as his only intention is to make that his personal wiki (which, again, I can understand to a certain extent ;).

You've looked for other places to do your stuff. Perhaps it's time to leave the old one, but be aware that (I think) the community as well as the visitors count higher and are more active here on Wikia than over there. And take the opinion of B. serious – they have not much sympathy for here, and of course they don't want have stuff on their pages that was simply copied from here.

In the past (around six or seven years or so), two wikis I was a regular visitor (at that time not so much editor) of, split, and one instance left here while the new (and "official" one) moved over to there. In the beginning I then consulted both pages, followed the RCs on both platforms, even tried to apply changes to an article on one host to the article on the other. But I soon realized that that's totally inefficient and not worth the effort. So I focused on that wiki I hold for the true one. And that was not here. Later I became admin on The Vault, and then for the |Official Pillars of Eternity Wiki (though my activity nowadays mainly focuses on this wiki). But I know what I'm speaking of, being active and admin in both hemispheres. I prefer wikiing over there, but if there's an established wiki I'm currently using here and not there (as e.g. for Baldur's Gate) then I don't go and create one there.

Maybe you should make use of that invitation you got from B. You can learn interesting stuff on that platform, ask questions, help other people. There's not only a channel for (nearly) every wiki, there are also general channels or specific ones for certain topics. And of course a private messaging system. But be aware, that's a chat – so you might need to learn some brevity before. ;)

Still, usually wikis on this host generate better results on search engines and have a higher community activity – on the other hand, overall quality (and technology, coding, extensions, etc.) is better over there.

-- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 13:17, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your sage advice. I should have gone to bed. I didn't go to bed. I went back again and typed even more. I don't think I wrote anything I wouldn't usually write, I just let more of my personality come through that normally I leave out of my online presence.

I didn't have to curse to make my point. I didn't have to do anything other than state facts. That usually shuts him up because he knows he's wrong. I touched a nerve this time though and he can't defend his point with facts. He's pulling rank, being even more aggressive, and acting even more like a petulant child.

I've said what I need to say to him without devolving into pettiness. I let my work and the quality of that work speak for me. I know I did the best I could with the skills I currently have and others are thankful for the work.

Respect is earned and not given freely. You can lose respect very quickly and spend a lifetime (if ever) trying to get it back.

You've earned my respect. Thank you again for your time and insight. :) --GS877 (talk) 21:41, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

Don't know exactly, how, but thanks!

A thing about editing (not commenting!) on talk pages: I have undone your self-censoring above because this word at that place was topic in a heated debate with somebody else, whom I blocked for using the term "moron". Your edit not only left me a bit confused because I couldn't find the word he mentioned (until I restored it after I noticed your further edit here), it now has also become a corpus delicti, and as such has to be kept for at least a certain time. (May I guess that that specific debate was the reason for your edit?)
 * Edits on talk pages – everywhere

This wiki not only lacks a descriptive manual of style, but it also has only a few basic guidelines. And none whatsoever about talk pages. (Except that small comment I just inserted.) So the general ones from Community Central would apply, if there are any. I think, MEW is handling them in a similar liberal way. Well, my personal vision is much more restrictive. It is mainly based on the Dragon Age Wiki talk page guidelines, which not only give very detailed rules for all purposes, but also explain these in a very good way. Unfortunately they cannot be applied completely to this wiki, as here are no real "talk pages" for the main namespace anymore, only comments' sections that are a source of … well, "heated debates".

This means, the only edits in each "… talk" namespace that are allowed by either the original poster or somebody else, including administrators and such would be: … and nothing more. No punctuation, no grammar, and especially no wording. If somebody uses improper language, then an administrator might step in and change that, but that wouldn't be allowed to the regular contributor.
 * keeping the structure/order, by indenting properly and adding headers where necessary
 * adding unsigned where necessary
 * repairing red-links whithout changing the original context

This includes that you should not edit your own posts at a later point of time! Because, you don't know how many people have already read it and how many people are referring to something from it. (E.g. if I hadn't removed a specific comment from a specific character's comment section on this wiki, replacing it with "That comment was deleted", two follow-up comments would have been much better understandably, but this way only lead to further offenses, a user block and that already mentioned "heated debate.")

A wiki has a preview feature, to avoid a number of edits in row only because of typos or bad wording. (Really, read that linked guideline, it's very good.)

Do you send an e-mail to somebody, only to recall it and make improvements? Or do you break into the recipient's mailbox, open the letter you sent and make some fixes? No, what's sent (and read) is sent (and read). You can add a note, you might insert stuff in a way I did over on MEW with the crossed-out section, but once posted it should forever be clear what was posted. (Or deleted completely by staff due to violating something.) (I usually turn a blind eye to several follow-up edits on my own talk page, because I check each single edit anyway. But still it's one thing to save the comment and fix a link or something two minutes later, and another thing to change wording only on the next day. By the way, there was that other edit which I wanted to revert, because it let me look like an idiot: I cited you (an error of yours that wasn't obvious for me) – and you simply changed that wording. Another example for things going wrong by editing comments … I didn't it immediately because that was in my off-time, and forgot it later.)

Really, I don't know how I earnt respect from you, beyond the basic respect people should have for each other. But D.R. just earnt mine – for that tough but not rough supporting post on T.'s talk. That was a good one, don't you think?
 * About sages and followers

For the general escalation of topic and wording there, of both of you … I can understand your emotions and what followed them. I hadn't written it that way. Perhaps. Sometimes I also get heated, at most times leading to sarcasm. Sometimes I just resignate. What remains: a bad feeling; not liking that section on his talk page; dissatisfaction with the atmosphere; and one more argument to not spend too much time on that wiki, at least as long as somebody specific is present. (And perhaps currently somebody else thinks the same about me here.)

You didn't drop a word about B. and GP … -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 09:43, August 13, 2018 (UTC)

I didn't think about editing my own comments until you gave examples of why it should stay the way you put it the first time (or after you've finished what you've written and its been commented on). There are consequences I hadn't thought of. Good points.

Yes, DR said very nice things in the right fashion. He doesn't do that normally. A stand up guy. He should be an admin but the other three as a group will never let him. T won't stop being a selfish king. E will just be neutral. And the other I've only spoken to once and he hasn't been active in over a year. So T will say no and that's it. They tried to dethrone him a while back and some how magically he got help with just enough no votes from a bunch of long quiet editors (years) to stay in power. If there were a way to become an admin to become a check and balance of his tyrannical power, I would. But T would never let me become an admin either.

I didn't have anything to say about B or GP. That's why I didn't write anything.

Thanks again for your help and advice. :) --GS877 (talk) 21:23, August 13, 2018 (UTC)


 * Note to myself: next time be less schoolmasterly and throw in some more emojis. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 06:43, August 14, 2018 (UTC)

CalOkand
CompleCCity! Thank you for the updates to Tattered Parchment. I had hoped it was a singular item — and then I encountered the others. I have no idea how the item codes work, so I am glad you could come in and straighten out the work that I had done.

As it's a wiki, I appreciate your contributions and improvements to what I had started — and your reasoning behind them!

I go off of what the Items section is as far as the Item Codes; beyond that, I don't know how to use them to make the items appear or however else the codes are used.

I am a native English speaker. It should be "on the xy-level of Watcher's Keep", unless you're saying it's "in (without an xy-level of) Watcher's Keep."

CalOkand (talk) 04:20, September 7, 2018 (UTC)

Compleccity, I mistyped when I was entering in categories and thus Stub — https://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Stub — is a new category. I have corrected this error, but would you please delete the aforementioned category?

CalOkand (talk) 23:00, September 8, 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! I will keep those links and ideas in mind as I edit. My workplace used a wiki system where I had to add the categories manually, so that was a habit.

I will start sorting through unused wiki images this afternoon. What do I do if I come across duplicate images, such as and  because the Golden Torso links to other images? Is there a "delete me" category for images? "Delete" tends to be an admin-only function, so I want to make it easier for those reviewing and deleting.

CalOkand (talk) 16:46, September 9, 2018 (UTC)

CompleCCity, thank you for picking up after my messes yesterday. I am sorry that I caused so much chaos. I have been sick the last few days and had hoped that I could add a few categories without making too much trouble. The next time I am this sick, I will not be as ambitious as I was this time around.

CalOkand (talk) 01:08, September 18, 2018 (UTC)

Lowercase D in "dialogues"! ARGH. I will follow this from now on. Sorry!

CalOkand (talk) 03:59, September 19, 2018 (UTC)

I assign categories quickly by opening what needs a tag in a new browser tab, adding the tags and then closing the tabs. With the Audio files, I copy and paste the Category; with the other ones, I click the "add category" button and type what I need.

CalOkand (talk) 04:16, September 20, 2018 (UTC)

NO! You can't do THAT!!!
Hey CompleCCity,

No, you're wrong. You don't know what you're doing. You can't take pictures like that. That's not my arbitrarily made up way to capture in-game pics. You don't understand. I'm rendering 3-D video for a flying cam vanity shot...

Dummkopf. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! My german is a very rusty but I do remember that word. (It's was either that or really super offensive curse word insults about your mother). Somehow, I think that I chose correctly with the less offensive word. :)

I just had to say something. :)

I have a technical question for you concerning categories.

I have an article called Kett: Primus. I add and it goes into that category. This is a codex entry and the name of an enemy. I want to change the name of the link of what is displayed on the category page and the letter A, B, etc where it is located.

Instead of it displaying "Kett: Primus" in the category "Characters", I want it to display "Primus".

I tried this:

It moved "Kett: Primus" from K to P but still displays "Kett: Primus".

I've also tried the following but nothing renames the page but instead just moves it between P, K, blank space, etc. Btw | translates into |. Learn something new every day. :)

Is it just the nature of categories that ONLY the actual article name will be placed in the category?

I knew you would probably know immediately the answer to this question. I couldn't find anything online and I know I'm just missing something dumb (or it's not possible). Thanks for your help in advance. --GS877 (talk) 23:12, September 21, 2018 (UTC)

"Is it just the nature of categories that ONLY the actual article name will be placed in the category?"

Yes!

I know, frustrating.

Leave the page uncategorized, but make a categorized redirect to it. Unusual, but would serve the purpose. :)

The exclamation mark/pipe thing you already learned when I was fixing your disambiguation links back then. I seem to be a poor teacher if you forget such things this quick. Dummkopf. (What's that in English?) ;) -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 23:45, September 21, 2018 (UTC)

No, you are not a poor teacher. Not by any means! I remembered that you could switch a | for the | because I've been using it. :) Sometimes the coding won't allow the pipe so you have to replace it with the | . I like the pipe better (just looks nicer to me when reading it). I didn't know that it would convert | over into the pipe symbol on the category page.

Because other existing articles list the enemy first as the article name and then the codex is a section on the page, I'll end up renaming the page. It's not a lot of work to do but I wanted to ask if there was an easy solution I was missing before I tried to do that. A non-categorized page and a categorized redirect doesn't follow the existing category framework. It is a very clever solution though. :)

Just call me a moron. :) That's a good version of that word in english. I should have made the connection that pipe equals | . Sometimes you are just a moron and don't think correctly. :)

Thanks again for your help. :)--GS877 (talk) 01:30, September 22, 2018 (UTC)

Of course I will not call you a moron – why would I? (My online dictionary doesn't even list it as possible translation to "Dummkopf" – there are sixty-four, but no "moron". It starts with "blockhead", and one American pejorative term would be – ha! – "dummkopf". "Moron", on the other hand, is translated as "Idiot" (which interestingly does only further down the list translate back to "idiot") or "Schwachkopf" … Well, all this – of course! – is not the reason why I wouldn't. :)

Hey, I've missed our talks. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 02:02, September 22, 2018 (UTC)

I've missed out talks as well. :) After I left that other place, it's been much easier and fun to edit. I still pop over there to see what's going on but it's pretty dead. That butthead is still up to his same old tricks. It's pretty easy to criticize and tear apart someone else's work after they created all of the work to begin with. Ooh, the admin made 4 tiny changes based on format months afterwards but I created 500 pages of brand new content and all of the structure and framework. But I'm the stupid one who doesn't know what he's doing. (Insert some random curse words and biting comments about how bad of an editor I am in the subject line). :) Just not worth being there anymore. DeldiRe said hey to me at the new place about a week ago. I got a chance to talk to him for a bit. It was nice. I missed getting to work with him on stuff. I let him know that he is always welcome at the new place and that it is much a much nicer place to be.

Never did get a response from the other admin. I think that says plenty about her character. What you don't say, speaks just as loudly as what you do. You don't have to agree with me, but you can at least respond back and say "I'm looking into it" or "Stop rocking the boat" or something. Saying nothing at all just sealed the deal for me. After two weeks of nothing, I let my last words there say everything about me. Sticking up myself and stating exactly how I feel. Such a lovely line from Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka. "You get nothing! You Lose! GOOD DAY SIR!" :) I always loved that line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U

--GS877 (talk) 06:38, September 24, 2018 (UTC)

Sadly I don't exactly get the meaning of that Willy Wonka. But I also have to admit that I sadly haven't seen that movie, yet, as well as the remake. I was very interested in the Johnny Depp version, and when it came out, I didn't even know that there's an original that's still regarded higher. So a must-see, both. And I think, I would start with the remake … one day …

I've read that talk of you two, and it made me a little sad – again – that I was not somebody who took position and tried to defend you. On the other hand – who am I on that wiki, that word of mine would count as something … Okay, perhaps only one of the reasons – in fact I didn't see the necessity of stepping in; thought, you're handling the situation well all by yourself; aaand … I didn't want to trigger animosity against me by … you know who. At that point of time I still thought, I would become a more regular contributor. Perhaps one day I will still become. Not on :A, however, as that's no game I'm interested in.

Hey, we should try to keep our words a little more "clean", okay? We still have some policy about language here on the wiki, and that has been topic in another discussion, already. So, please try to avoid potentially offending words in the future. ;)

I guess, over time I'm making some people here hate me as well, and already have made. Perhaps something that automatically comes with the job of an administrator? Or perhaps not, and more based on how I do that job … Yeah, not easy to be a perfectionist.

By the way, on that other place – you're aware, you have an option now to contact me directly, non-publicly? (Take a look at the bottom section of the left main navbar when on my profile.) 'til then -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:20, September 25, 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. Got busy and forgot to send a reply.

I would definitely say that the original one is a better movie. You should start with that one. They got all flashy with CGI on the new one and they didn't do as good of a job with the story. In the old days, you had to have good story because the pretty graphics and colors wouldn't carry your movie. They knew how to "act" and didn't rely on gimmicks.

Don't be sad or disheartened. :) You didn't need to stand up for me. You talked with me and counseled me on the best course of action forward. I valued that more than anything you could have said in that other place. As you stated, there wasn't a lot of things you could have done (you'd only been a member there for 1 month) and it doesn't help to have a pyrrhic victory.

No more bad words???? AWWWWWWW, that takes all the fun out it. :)

You are fair and consistent in your polices. Just as an admin should be. You apply the rules to yourself as much as you would to any other person. You explain and have a discourse with a person (sometimes at great length even in your non-native tongue). You also have short timeouts for people. Here is your one day penalty. Keep it up and I'll make it three days. You don't deny someone access just out of spite. You make it a community, not your personal blog.

On the other place, do you mean under the "Tools" menu, the "Email this user"?

Mainly, if I can't say something in public, then I shouldn't say it. :) Sort of a way to stop myself from saying stupid things I'll regret later. I realize that sometimes you need to talk about sensitive subjects that shouldn't be public and that function would come in handy. (Names, address, other things that would dox you). I would still not say things that I would regret later even in an email.

Let me know if you end up watching the movie. I think you'll like it. :) --GS877 (talk) 23:26, October 1, 2018 (UTC)

Now it's on me to ask to be excused, for my delay. (Though I didn't "forget", was busy only. :P

Still haven't watched neither of the movies, but I do suppose that the original's the better one, and that's why I would start with the remake – save the best for last.

At the moment I'm binge watching House M.D. – last season, already. Let's see what's next then …

Do you just appreciate the "old days", or at least their art of film making? Or are you older than I thought?

Thanks for your kind words. About both topics.

That community thing, however, discourses and explanations … don't know. Take a look at Autonomyfairy's talk page – after doing myself a further edit on one of her last contributions, she just stayed away. Not to mention that she did prefer not to talk with me anymore, despite me trying to be kind and explaining myself and such … And that's not the first case of me – at least as I sometimes think it might be – putting somebody off. Bad perfectionism, bad meticulosity …

What's my mother tongue (or non-) to do with the length of my discussions? *confused*

Yes, that eMail thing that Wikia doesn't have. (Amongst millions of other things over there …) Used it once – I'm not even sure anymore if this would reveal our addresses to each other or if they even then are kept anonymous …

But that's a great explanation you delivered there for not using it – respect! (Along with good examples of why/when to use it anyway.)

This is a rather short answer, this time. Not my day, this day … will go and fetch some fresh air, out into the night, the darkness; away from the computer for … an hour? Perhaps? Always too short … -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 20:45, October 14, 2018 (UTC)

I'd watch the original first. It makes the story better and you don't get to see what happens ahead of time.

I watched House some time ago but I sort of fell out of watching it. Just got "meh".

Did you ever watch "Dexter"? It was great show but there were about 4 seasons too many. Like House. They just don't know when to stop. That and when they get away from the core of why the show was good. I want the serial killer, I don't want the guy who's getting yelled at by his nagging girlfriend. Concerned about his stepkid's goldfish. Gawwdd, I don't need real life. I want an escape. :)

I like old film. 40's-60's. I don't like the 70's. Film is colored bad and just isn't good. Bad acting and not good stories. They don't make em like they used to.

Film noir and stuff from the 30's is good too. The falcon series, nick and nora detective movies, and other stuff from then is just good times.

As for film, sometimes the old and the new are good but for different reasons. I really like Ocean's Eleven. The original from the 60's was the rat pack and was just them being them. It's hokey at times but the music is great and the story is good. When they remade it, it is it's own movie and just as good. The story is great and the music is awesome. They know how to act. It just works.

The same can be said for The Thomas Crowne Affair. 1960's with Steve McQueen. Just an awesome pic. They did some awesome stuff with split up screens in that movie. It was super expensive and hard to do. The new one with pierce brosnan is also a great movie. Just done so well.

Often a remake isn't good but sometimes they get it right.

As to your being the "iron handed admin", perhaps the person just got busy. You never know why someone doesn't respond right away. It happens. You don't have to try and please anyone. You just have a few extra bells and whistles as an admin. You stick to the rules and hold people to them just as you would to your self. If people don't want that, they don't have to be here. That's on them and not you. The rules aren't unreasonable. You don't threaten, you don't gloat, or look down with disdain. You just want the best wiki you can get. :)

It never hurts to take a break and to get away from the tech. Some time away to clear the mind. :)

--GS877 (talk) 02:57, October 19, 2018 (UTC)

Simulacrum
Ty for all your many wonderful contributions to the wonderful BG wikia.

Simulacrum seems to level characters to 60% of XP not 60% of level. Is there any way to test this?

Also is HP 60% of that new level or of caster's HP as stated? just wanted to confirm since in-game discription seems a bit off from my testing but I don't have the code awarness you have. -- Added by OmniOptic-86GR6W3 (talk • contribs)


 * Not so sure about all that "wonderfulness" … ;)


 * Really – I think, you're overestimating me. I am able to understand dialogue files and game scripts (to a certain extent), but if it comes to such inner game mechanics, with "opcodes" and such, I'm often completely overwhelmed.
 * Most things I do by analyzing the game files, not play-testing. Doesn't help with Simulacrum, though. And currently I don't have a savegame that I could indeed use to test …
 * In such cases I refer to external sources:
 * the Beamdog forums are good, but this one nets 60 pages of results – too much for me right now to browse through (there seems to be something wrong with the spell, according to this specific thread)
 * PlayItHardcore often has some decent technical and background information; not so much on this one, but clearly their description differs from what is told elsewhere
 * the IESDP is a good research tool for all game file related, but unfortunately I couldn't find anything useful about this spell's effects
 * I haven't tried Google, yet …


 * If your testing reveals reliable results that let the spell description look wrong, this of course should be added there in a "Gameplay" section. It's also possible to alter the infobox stats, where necessary – in that case cross-out any cited in-game values (by wrapping them in tags) and state the correct information. (Has possibly to be cross-checked with the non-enhanced game. Well, perhaps later …)
 * Do as you think best! :)


 * I usually prefer one topic completely accessible on one page – that's why I replied here, rather than cross-posting on two talk pages. Hope, you don't mind. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:43, September 22, 2018 (UTC)


 * P.S. Try to remember signing next time, with four

Bot Permission
Hello! Sorry for the very late reply. I am absolutely fine with you running a bot for the wiki. What exactly do you need me to do to make this happen? -Thomas Love [//community.wikia.com/wiki/User:Thomaslove92 http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png] [ talk ] 23:24, September 26, 2018 (UTC)

Wrong category name
Aw, hell. I created a new category ("PPE Portraits") with a secondary capital letter. I appologize for being inconsistent, 3C. :(

I will do better!

CalOkand (talk) 17:23, September 29, 2018 (UTC)

I will listen to your advice and not adding any other images to the "Portrait" category.

It makes sense to me to add the PPE portraits to their own category instead of Creature Portraits — then again, I created the former category and didn't know of the latter. Having a PPE-specific category groups the portraits from that mod and lets users know how they can access those portraits. Creature portraits seems to be more semi-official or unfinalized portraits. That said, I can easily move the PPE category under the Creature portraits cateogry. Please give it somet thought and let me know your decision.

CalOkand (talk) 05:40, September 30, 2018 (UTC)

Ah! Talking about the portrait subcategories makes sense. (The categories' names are capitalized here for emphasis only! ;D )
 * Companion Portraits and Player-Only are nice, because I like to pick a portrait that isn't already used.
 * Breaking them down by game is also helpful.
 * Male Portraits and Female Portraits categories are kind of helpful, as the game has male and female characters.
 * Portraits by Artist I feel is great! The artists need more credit, and an interested user might track down their other work.
 * (I plan on doing something similar for the in-game audio, when I can.)
 * Portraits by Race is helpful, because it's not always clear.
 * Portraits by Class is almost the least helpful of the bunch. I can pick any class and any portrait. I don't see many folks being as much of a stickler for class portraits over race portraits.

CalOkand (talk) 20:02, September 30, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Bassilus's undead --
I did Bassilus's encounter in my current playthrough yesterday. Bassilus attacked me, but the skeletons and zombies remained neutral. Once Bassilus was dead, the undead remained alive and neutral but began to wander around from their original positions. I didn't realize this wasn't expected behavior, or I'd have tried to replicate it! Autonomyfairy (talk) 03:10, October 3, 2018 (UTC)autonomyfairy

Edit: Confirmed, went back to earlier save and replicated the behavior. Undead did not suicide and remained alive and non-aggro after Bassilus killed. -- Added by Autonomyfairy (talk • contribs)

Re: What links here
Regarding, I went with what the About page said. This has been essential in making other changes; as far as I know, it's the one time that it's failed me.

CalOkand (talk) 04:32, October 5, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Duplicated icons
Including galleries makes a lot of sense! Icons change, even slightly, across the games. It's helpful to know what items look like in which editions, too.

The only downside is that there can be a lot of icons involved...

CalOkand (talk) 04:16, October 16, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Huh?
The article that I had edited was poorly formatted. I standardized that article to match the other articles. Doing so made me realize that you are a great mod and have so much patience. Thank you for that.

CalOkand (talk) 00:34, October 22, 2018 (UTC)

Unused BG2 versions of player-only portraits
Regarding the recent undone revisions (read as: proposed deletions) of Canderous MAN2 Portrait BG2.png and others, these portraits aren't used on the Portrait page. It may be true that "the original BG2 versions are lighter than the others, sometimes even slightly enlarged (and cropped again)" like you had said. However, the Portrait page dismisses reposting the original BG or sharing the BG2 images by saying "In addition to all of the portraits introduced in the original Baldur's Gate..." Should these modified portraits from BG2 be added to the Portrait section?

CalOkand (talk) 03:18, October 27, 2018 (UTC)

Re:Coincidence?
No! I'm Jaqen elsewhere but I don't even have an account on Beamdog forum. Jaqen (talk) 21:30, October 28, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Technical question
Compleccity, I have returned to the computer where I had made the problematic edit the other night.

My Mac uses Google Chrome, Version 70.0.3538.77.

I use Source and check the formatting in Visual whenever I make an edit.

I did use Command/Control F to find the misspelling.

CalOkand (talk) 06:07, November 3, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Welcome
Hi

I'm konchady1, thanks for your response. I thought that special traits was proficiencies so i made that edit. As it turns out Haer Dalis is more interesting than the average blade.

Thanks for reverting the changes as I agree with your suggestions.

Konchady1 (talk) 14:35, November 9, 2018 (UTC)

Private life
I'm writing a novel this month, and I am quite behind in it. I'll be back to help more with the wiki in December. Or I finish the novel. Whichever comes first.

CalOkand (talk) 19:09, November 22, 2018 (UTC)


 * I have returned! The novel went well but isn't done yet. I need to put a few more hours in to get it to that point. It should be there by the end of this year, I hope. -- Added by CalOkand (talk • contribs)

Re: Creature recategorization project
I had thought something was up, as Fll'Yissetat was listed as a red dragon. Splitting dragons by type certainly makes sense, as each type has its own attacks and weaknesses versus, uh, trolls, which are pretty standardized (stabbing will put them on the ground, but fire and acid can kill them).

... At least I didn't add another category type, right? :D

CalOkand (talk) 20:27, November 22, 2018 (UTC)

Infobox and article
Hi, thanks for dropping by in my talk page. I'm new here and editing this wiki while I play BG:EE. I have a question:

Do we need to move the info from creature and item page into their info boxes? Example of what I did: Thanks. Kinoshita tokichiro (talk) 09:24, November 24, 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) Move quest and dropped by into the info box in Angel Skin Ring.
 * 2) Move quest into the info box in Petrine.


 * I hope, it's okay to reply here – I said somewhere that I prefer one discussion on one page, rather than jumping around between talk pages …
 * Just browsing through the recent changes – called "patrolling" –, from bottom to top after my last activity here "yesterday", and found your edit on the Angel Skin Ring you're mentioning … no, we don't need to "move" the info – it should be in both places, the infobox and the article: inside the infobox as brief as possible, on the article space perhaps a bit more elaborated. I will add the info back in …


 * Side note: that wasn't actually me "dropping by". ;) It's a bot, and it places the name of the latest active administrator.


 * Good to see somebody contributing to the wiki again! Has become scarce over time … -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:04, November 24, 2018 (UTC)

Quest and Item with a same name
I made 2 pages: Arkion's Bloodstone Amulet and Arkion's Bloodstone Amulet (side quest). These 2 pages have a same name. How do we handle this? Thanks Kinoshita tokichiro (talk) 09:39, November 26, 2018 (UTC)


 * This happens often – such pages then need to be "disambiguated", usually by a so-called "disambiguation suffix", exactly like you did. I have changed it to only "quest", though – "side" isnt needed there and only makes the title longer. One could now think of making a disambiguation page for it and add another suffix to the "item", but as a Bloodstone Amulet – be it with or without any prefix – clearly is an item, I don't think that's necessary.
 * So – well done! :)
 * I've reworked those two pages a bit, with (hopefully) descriptive edit summaries.
 * And, yes! Wikiing slows down gaming time. ;) But a good, complete and correct wiki can help to speed it up again. ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:07, November 26, 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'm playing as a good party this time with Neera and Rasaad. Rasaad sucks, low level capped monks are bad. This wiki editing will indeed speed up my next replay as an evil party with Dorn and Baeloth. Kinoshita tokichiro (talk) 05:33, November 27, 2018 (UTC)

Nymph Cloak
Hi, your changes to Nymph Cloak are slightly misleading: Is there an Infobox for non-spell, non-HLA thingies like Charm Creature? -- Wiki Kaczor (talk) 15:43, December 1, 2018 (UTC)
 * 40/100 charges behaviour is present in EE, it may be better to explicitly state that "Baldur's Gate I" means both classic and EE (maybe would be better?).
 * Actually this is what I intended with using "Baldur's Gate I", but I've changed it to a different link and placed the icons. :) (This is also the reason why I placed "preliminary notes" on the game articles.) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:10, December 1, 2018 (UTC)
 * What is it about 100% guarantee? Charm Creature is never guaranteed to work, it just doesn't check for racial type. I believe that (Half)Elves resistance affects all charm effects in the same way.
 * The effect has a probability of 100. The EEs add effects for (half-)elves, to reduce this. I can't tell exactly how this is managed in the original SoA – the original and unmodded BG, however, ignores these racial resistances. I've reworded it to "100-%-chance" – better? What exactly do you mean by "never guaranteed to work" and "just doesn't check for racial type"? Which checks are made additionally? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:10, December 1, 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh, OK. I've misinterpreted your words as "Charm Creature ignores the save and charms with 100% guarantee unless you're an (half-)elf". -- Wiki Kaczor (talk) 20:49, December 1, 2018 (UTC)
 * I've just tested it (EE 2.5.17.0) and the cloak does not recharges upon rest - depleted or not. It doesn't seem to be a bug either, because even after expending all the charges Nymph Cloak still provides a charisma bonus.
 * Removed.


 * We have infobox ability, infobox spell and infobox status effect – all of which I haven't looked deeply into, yet. I guess, spell or ability could be used for this. Do you think, we need an extra infobox? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:10, December 1, 2018 (UTC)
 * I've seen those and noticed that they auto-categorise pages which is the reason of my confusion. According to descriptions neither Category:Abilities nor Category:Spells should contain item-based abilities and neither of them do right now. I don't think another infobox in needed (those two already seem very similar), maybe a simple switch or even extending category description would do, it's your call. -- Wiki Kaczor (talk) 20:49, December 1, 2018 (UTC)


 * This wiki has so much potential for improvements that at most times I don't know where to start …
 * Currently I'm working on the infobox creature – and I guess, this will need much more time. I'm thinking about merging infobox companion into it – both are for *.cre files, so why not? And certain things can be done with flags or such.


 * Abilities and Spells are both *.spl files – could be merged, too … one day.


 * But what about making indeed a new category and infobox "effect" (the so-called "opcode"), which then could be used by spells and abilities … and items and creatures and …
 * BG1EE has "only" 383 (or something) of these. ;)
 * A start could be to construct the infobox based on these two pages: EFF file format for BG1: TotS, BG2, BG2: ToB and for BG1: TotS, BG2, BG2: ToB.


 * That would be a project of similar dimensions as adding all those NPC only items which give certain creatures so many immunities and such or determine the damage dealt by them.


 * When all these things exist one day, that would reduce infobox size greatly – as all what's extensively described now (or not mentioned with a single word) could use links. Perhaps some neat and short transclusion templates that show the main features of an effect or the creature's weapon …


 * Interested? ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 21:21, December 1, 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to fill 383 articles with meaningful content in any reasonable timeframe... ;) As for the infobox itself or various undroppable items that I'll stumble upon - sure, why not. For starters take a look at …

RING99
… RING99, I've made it includable ( ) and it expands to a list of its abilities. It may not be the most elegant solution, by hey, it works. If that's acceptable, I'll move all these HTML to a template to make it prettier and easier to use in the future. -- Wiki Kaczor (talk) 17:13, December 4, 2018 (UTC)


 * Great! And making one template for the transclusion code itself seems to be the simpler solution, compared with my idea of making one transclusion template for each item. :)


 * I've made minor changes to it:
 * Renamed it to Ring (skeletons) – I'd prefer to use the often existent trivial names, already existent on the items. In this case it would have been "Ring", so it needed a suffix. As  is mostly worn by skeletons, this one makes sense. Or do you think, this would only mess up the search? With the still existing redirect it may work …
 * Removed image and icon – For one: in infoboxes the simple filename suffices, it's not necessary and also unwanted to use  (on the other hand – you forgot the filetype index ;). Second: I have a different filenaming system, and when items are on my list, those images will all be renamed and not consist only of the original BAM filename. And third: I doubt, these items need images. ;)
 * Made it linkable inside the infobox


 * I guess,  is needed to make it work inside the collapsible tags (do they have to be closed?)? Why do you use  instead of ''' ? And what's  for?
 * I don't know if I like that arrow, but … as you said, "may not be the most elegant solution, but hey, it works". ;)


 * Are my changes (and questions) okay? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 17:47, December 4, 2018 (UTC)


 * Ha! It's funny that you don't like the name as I've created this page through a link YOU have provided on the Icharyd's page. :) Nevertheless, I care little for the final name and highly doubt anyone will explicitly search for either RING99 or Ring (skeletons).


 * I've used an HTML instead of a wiki markup, solely because I couldn't get rid of a huge indent in the later (and for no particular reason in case of  ). I suspect it can be done somehow, but I've run out of ideas (without an access to CSS at least). So both  and  are there just for the list to look better. The  does not need to be closed, I simply prefer it that way. As for the arrow, it can be changed to almost anything (character, image, block of text), but I think that some indicator of expandability is needed.-- Wiki Kaczor (talk) 23:28, December 4, 2018 (UTC)


 * I've given this its own header – less colons, and … plausible. ;)


 * Moved it back – for now. Perhaps they get names when we have all of them. But there are also items for which the naming is not that easy. For example, how would you distinguish  and  ? But they could – for now – have their existent (How could you understand what I had written above? My, so many "existent"s in that first paragraph …) "trivial" name given as name in the infobox and as link.


 * What CSS would you need? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:30, December 5, 2018 (UTC)


 * I would distinguish them by the letter N. :) But seriously, though, I believe that names of such pages hardly matter. Anybody familiar with the item code has gotten it through NI or the like and already knows what the item does, others probably don't even know of the ring existence so they're unlikely to perform a search anyway. As I see it, it all comes down to personal preference and consistency with other articles. Still, I suggest making decision now to save us extra work in the future.


 * I think something like  would do. Have you thought about a replacement for the arrow? -- Wiki Kaczor (talk) 15:58, December 5, 2018 (UTC)


 * Then we go with the all-uppercase item filename solution: makes them distinguishable from regular items on first sight. And – as you say – they won't be often searched for …


 * This okay?

/* Helper class for infobox collapsibles. */ .ib-collapsible { margin-left: 0; }
 * (I'm not the most proficient person in CSS …)


 * As it all works at the moment, the arrow – more a triangle – is the only indicator that there might be something hidden. What about making it more look like the classic collapsible things, with square brackets and a link? What about using ? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 14:47, December 6, 2018 (UTC)


 * Just noticed, that this currently doesn't work if these items are
 * "listed"
 * in the infobox. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 14:59, December 6, 2018 (UTC)


 * I've removed unnecessary whitespace and it works now both within and outside of lists. Unfortunately, after conducting several tests it seems that there are other issues:
 * An HTML part cannot be hidden within a template. There is a long lasting bug in Media Wiki preventing nesting tags of the same type. It means that all, and must be placed directly in a transcluded page.
 * Lists created with :, * or # cannot be nested either, so wiki markup is useless for creating lists within lists.
 * I've reorganised RING99's properties to save some space and CSS change may not be required now (take a look at an indent size yourself and decide). However, for the sake of completeness, omitting " " do make a difference. In CSS " " means children of an element with specified class.
 * Reverting to regular [expand/collapse] button has also simplified a syntax a bit. Still, it's a raw HTML and while it should work correctly in all cases I can think of, it may not be desirable. So what do you think? Is it acceptable? If the answer would be positive I'll start adding other undroppable items. -- Wiki Kaczor (talk) 09:57, December 8, 2018 (UTC)


 * Now comes the noob (sorry) …

Isn't this "nested"?
 * I've not understood half of what you were saying. And looking into RING99's infobox … well, there's a lot of "include"s …
 * Huh?
 * Again … as I mentioned before, I'm not the most proficient person in CSS. Have I done something wrong in MediaWiki:Wikia.css? Because, you had a  up there, in your code, which I haven't added. If this is the case, then please provide me the correct code within   -tags. Or do you speak about using the class on the item page?
 * What about making the link to the ring itself the expand button? So that it would "look" like this:
 * Immunity to something else
 * [ Ring ]


 * Sorry again for me being sometimes such a noob if it's about wiki coding.


 * Initially, you spoke of creating a template for this, but still it's all directly coded on the item page. Are those above the reasons for this? The issues with e.g. nested tags? I've another idea – and not directly connected to these possible issues, but in general: as this is no regular item – why not making a simple article without any infobox for it? You could make an "Effects" section where you have all the needed freedom of using templates, include-tags and whatever coding you want. (This would also have the benefit of not including such items in regular now-or-in-the-future-automated item categories.) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:37, December 8, 2018 (UTC)


 * I apologise, I needlessly go a little bit too technical.
 * Yes, there are and that's precisely what I was trying to get rid of. I'd hoped for hiding them in a template (common for all similar items), leaving RING99 page clean from all these includes, but it has turned out to be impossible.
 * Unfortunately double asterisk (**) only gives the illusion of nesting, but in reality it creates a completely separate list with greater indentation. In most trivial cases it doesn't matter, but consider a Template:MyList with following content: * A&#10;* B One may expect that using it as an element of another list: * C&#10;* will result in this: &#9642; C&#10;  &#9642; A&#10;  &#9642; B but that's not the case.
 * Let's leave the CSS issue for later, when we come up with a final format for the page.
 * Clicking it then would be ambiguous. The link part of it would try to take you to RING99 page while simultaneously the button part would want to expand the list.
 * Yes, exactly, all these issues prevents me from using aforementioned template. Removing infobox doesn't change anything for me, if you think it is not needed - no problem. If just moving the code from infobox to a section is OK (it still leaves all those tags intact), then it's done. If it's discourage to use such code on the non-template page, then going back to the very first idea of creating a separate template for all these undroppable items is also a possibility. -- Wiki Kaczor (talk) 08:56, December 11, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Welcome
Sorry about the "scroll of" edits to the Mutamin page. The goal was to make it easier to determine using simple text search when a creature would drop a scroll rather than knew a spell. Currently it is nearly impossible to track down "Scroll of Lightning Bolt" in loot information since that particular phrase isn't actually written anywhere. If you look on the spell page, there are only store listings for a large portion of available scrolls. Granted most are purchaseable, but it would be nice to know all the specific scroll drops. Anyway the intent wasn't make the article worse, and was by no means done in the spirit of vandalism. -- Added by Zamfield (talk • contribs)

Re: Disambiguation suffixes
How about Rope (Diving)? I'll change the links from Rope (BAZPLO05) to the former once I get the OK.

CalOkand (talk) 06:33, December 28, 2018 (UTC)

Ahh, gotcha. In the wiki we used for work, I didn't have access to the Rename button; we had to copy content and to use redirects. I will keep the rename button in mind going forward!

CalOkand (talk) 20:27, December 28, 2018 (UTC)

Completion of ToB
Thank you! I am pleased to have it done. Now I get to have a honeymoon with another game or two before I jump back in and replay it.

Brun's Dead Son
What else could I say about him? That's all the description said. No smells, no description of wounds...

Infobox Templates
I will copy the infobox afresh from the corresponding area whenever I add an infobox to an article.

Edits to articles
You're the admin. Please edit what I've done as much as needed. If there are any recurring mistakes I make, let me know so I can do my best to implement them correctly the first time around!

CalOkand (talk) 04:38, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

The Wiki

 * I'll be around to help with the wiki! I've helped out as much as I have because I want it to be a more robust resource than it already is — and it's a solid resource. But there are plenty of missing articles. I'm still learning my way around Near Infinity, but I'll learn in time.


 * Have a great time in 2019!


 * CalOkand (talk) 18:06, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

Infobox Item Template
On the Infobox Item Template, the template itself uses General, but the documentation and the displayed template use Type. Would you please update it so they are uniform?


 * Ah! In that case, would you please put something in the "Parameter" or "What to fill it with" fields that this is how the General field renders. Most of the others match up one-to-one, but that one caused me some confusion, General changing to Type.


 * (Also, "Paremeter" is spelled wrong in said documentation..)


 * CalOkand (talk) 20:45, January 1, 2019 (UTC)

Re: Alveus's notes
I had (earlier) come across a few items where the  had not had italics all the way down, hence why I had added . I will keep in mind that the  should only have one when there are single line breaks.

I'll be sure to add the See Also section to the end of articles, too!

CalOkand (talk) 20:45, January 1, 2019 (UTC)

My Responses
I don't mean to sound like I'm being given orders on your suggestions. I also know that if you can have someone else and you get on the same page, it's a lot easier to work together. You're an admin and shouldn't have to keep ironing out the articles and changes I input. Ideally, anyway.

I am sure I will fill in the rest of the Holy Symbols with time, but right now, I am going down the list of Items and seeing what's a redlink and creating it. It's a start.

CalOkand (talk) 06:04, January 3, 2019 (UTC)

Black Pits Level Caps
Hey CompleCCity,

Just wanted to follow up on your comment on the Mage / Thief BP level cap. Experience Tables states at the bottom of the page that the M/T, C/T, and C/M classes all have level caps of 250,000 XP (and the C/R has one of 600,000 XP) which is what I based that note on. I didn't check the game files myself, so it's possible that it was a bug in early BP versions that was fixed or something like that. Can't check the .2DA at the moment, but that's where I got that info from.

Thanks, Mitchfork (talk) 16:06, January 7, 2019 (UTC)


 * Those are the values from that same file,, without Siege of Dragonspear installed – Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition only. The cap was unified for SoD (all 500,000). I can't verify this at the moment, but it's said that 161,000 still is the max you can reach before SoD in the original campaign(s). Unfortunately I can't tell you how The Black Pits are affected by this, as well, but I guess we have to split that paragraph into without and with SoD. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 19:19, January 7, 2019 (UTC)


 * Was able to do some tests: original campaign(s): 161,000. BP: 500,000 for all with SoD installed (can't test without, but why should the 2da file be wrong?) I've updated that section on the tables' article. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 20:33, January 7, 2019 (UTC)


 * Oh, very interesting.  That's a little bit more complicated that I thought.  I will put the BP logo at 500k on all of the class pages then, and leave the XP table to explain that it may be different if you don't have SoD.
 * Mitchfork (talk) 20:42, January 7, 2019 (UTC)

I Can't Believe They're Not Eggs
What are your thoughts on the Fake Dragon Eggs? I had thought that it was a disambiguation page for Solaufein's and Phaere's fake eggs, but it seems to be a self-contained page for both (I had made the former page before I saw the FDE page existed). If we split them off, we can share the tactics for giving each item to the dragon or the demon in Chapter 5. If we redirect the pages, we get to take better care of the original page. I like splitting them off, but that may not be best.

I am holding off on changing my new page or the FDE page until I hear back. I don't want to undo work we get to undo anyway.

CalOkand (talk) 19:09, January 13, 2019 (UTC)


 * I agree with two pages and a disambiguation (<- use this then).
 * "Rename" Fake Dragon Eggs to, make the needed corrections, and then switch the redirect to disambiguation, I'd say. (Or, better, edit it simultaneously if you want to add some text from the current page.)


 * By the way – good to see you still caring about all that bland work, such as removing redundant categories from images. :) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 19:36, January 13, 2019 (UTC)

Spell Pages

 * Moved to the forum

1pp-mod Additions
After doing some research, there are certain items that are in the BG:EE code, sure, but aren't accessible in the game, such as Eilistraee's Boon and the Circlet of the Archmagi. How should they be explained? Do we need a section or category for them? Should we tag them as in the BG:EE?

I haven't heard from you in a while, but I hope you're doing well.

CalOkand (talk) 21:19, February 23, 2019 (UTC)

Re: Your "proofreadings"
I have answered the message you left in my talk page. I'm telling you here because I don't know if you would receive a notification otherwise.

Alonshow (talk) 23:55, April 1, 2019 (UTC)


 * No wikia "notification", but an eMail about an edit on your talk page … and I also browse the recent changes regularly. ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 13:08, April 2, 2019 (UTC)

Disambiguation Header
CCC,

What's the best way to say that the Belladonna Flowers and Belladonna are similar but different items?

CalOkand (talk) 01:08, April 13, 2019 (UTC)

Disambiguation Page, Pt. 2
The confuse template was exactly what I had wanted! I couldn't remember the exact wording, so my searches returned nothing. I will put that to use on the two articles shortly. Thanks, CCC!

CalOkand (talk) 16:37, April 14, 2019 (UTC)

Your reversions of my edits
A few weeks ago I corrected some linguistic mistakes you made in some articles. It looks like you don’t like to be corrected, so you reverted my corrections without consulting with me first. When I tried to explain my corrections you refused to discuss my feedback. Finally, when I suggested that you might have made some mistakes, you got angry, felt insulted, and said you didn’t want to keep talking to me.

I understand that you get upset when somebody corrects your mistakes. You have reverted many of my corrections to restore the grammar mistakes you had originally made (or, in some cases, to make new ones). Your reversion in the article about vampires is specially amusing. In that article you originally wrote that vampires grant their victims great strength and formidable supernatural abilities. I corrected (removed) that, and you reverted my correction to make it clear that yes, vampires do those nice things for their victims.

Anyway, I’d like to keep improving the wiki, but it’s definitely not my intention to upset you. I think it’s best if I leave all of your mistakes where they are and focus my efforts on pages that you haven’t edited. Will that work for you? Will you stop reverting my edits if I do that?

Alonshow (talk) 01:44, April 24, 2019 (UTC)