User talk:CompleCCity/Archive 4

20191231 – 20190531 | December 31, 2019 (UTC) to May 31, 2019 (UTC)

20190530 – 20180614 | May 30, 2019 (UTC) to June 14, 2018 (UTC)

20180613 – 20171208 | June 13, 2018 (UTC) to December 8, 2017 (UTC)

20171207 – 20170917 | December 7, 2017 (UTC) to September 17, 2017 (UTC) __NONEWSECTIONLINK__

BG3
So... how did the analytics perform for the wiki today after the BG3 announcement? I work those numbers regularly at my work, so I am genuinely super curious!

CalOkand (talk) 03:36, June 7, 2019 (UTC)


 * Making a new page for BG3 makes a lot of sense, for the benefit of SEO and the wiki itself. I love that Larian is sharing a lot of new content on YouTube. I can't wait to see how the newest video goes.


 * CalOkand (talk) 01:45, June 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * The newest video (to my knowledge) is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI4v6hC_rjM. Subscribing to the channel may also be helpful.


 * (I had hoped for new details today, but all we — still — know is that the 5e module "Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus" will be a prequel of sorts to BG3, take place a hundred years after the last game and have a gazetteer for the changes since BG2.)


 * CalOkand (talk) 04:06, June 11, 2019 (UTC)


 * I thought I had heard mention of "gazetter" of the "movers and shakers" of Baldur's Gate when Mike and Sven went onto the PC Gaming Show, but I guess not. It may come from another video or something that I had watched about it...


 * CalOkand (talk) 02:48, June 12, 2019 (UTC)

CTM-Team Hilfe für Baldurs Gate III
Hallo,

(da du ja anscheinend in Deutschland wohnst, schreibe ich dir hier mal auf Deutsch ;-)

Tatsächlich bin ich ein Content Team Moderator, was so viel bedeutet, dass wir den Communities gerade bei neu angekündigten Spielen helfen das Wiki aufzubauen. Dies gilt besonders für den Inhalt von neuen Spielen, als auch die Erstellung einer übersichtlicheren Hauptseite oder das Wiki mobil zu gestalten.

Du sagtest, du bräuchtest Hilfe bei der Hauptseite und da würde ich dich gerne unterstützen. Des Weiteren würde ich dir auch bei den Inhalten für das neu angekündigte Baldurs Gate III helfen. Wiki Manager sind dafür da dich bei weiteren Schritten nachträglich zu unterstützen, wenn du bei weiteren Vorhaben Hilfe bräuchtest. Councilor sind etwas anderes, die geben Fandom das nötige Community-Feedback für neue Features oder Veränderungen der Plattform. Falls du noch weitere Fragen haben solltest stehe ich natürlich jederzeit zur Verfügung :) Cyanide3 (talk) 18:16, June 7, 2019 (UTC)


 * Sure! No problem using the English language. I just wanted to let you know I am fine with both languages.


 * For the mobile main page: You can set up your own mobile main page on the right corner underneath the button for "Editing the Main page". I would like to start working on that, so mobile users can navigate through your wiki.
 * For the main page itself I would suggest making some changes, because a main page can be shortened for people to navigate quickly and better through the wiki. For this I created a User:Cyanide3/Worksheet.
 * I changed the "Games" section into a gallery, because it's mobile friendlier and can be compatible for different sizes of computer screens.
 * I would delete "Featured images" since I think the important parts of the wiki should be featured on the main page.
 * I changed the "Video" section because I think the main focus should be on Baldurs Gate III. That is what people are searching for right now. Keep the main page as simply it's possible because it's "only" an overview for the rest of the wiki.
 * For the right side of the main page I would shorten the help section to the most important links. Later I show you that I put some of the links in the navigation bar.


 * Other ideas:
 * Polls are always great! I contacted Fandom about enabeling the discussions on this wiki. This is a much newer version and work as same as the old Threads. For more informations -> Help:Discussions. Through this "system" you can create polls, discussion threads for BGIII or create a countdown for the game if you wish to set one up. The discussions are also a big part of the mobile version, which means mobile users/readers can discuss whenever they want to. With threads it wasn't possible without switching to the desktop version.
 * Twitter and Facebook can be added on the main page as a Help:Social media integration.
 * Dafür musste ich Firefox's "Elemente zur Aktivitätenverfolgung blockieren" für das Wiki aufheben. Wunderte mich schon, warum nix angezeigt wird … ;) Du kannst übrigens interne Help:Links verwenden, nicht nötig zu CC zu linken. (Und in deutsch, weil ich nicht weiß wie das Browser-Feature in englisch heißt. ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:40, June 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * On my worksheet I also created a newer version for the Navigation bar. This incudes the direct links to the games of this Fandom. If you give me the go I can change it within a minute.


 * I can start working on the main page now and we can finish everything on the weekend. If I find a good image for BGIII I can create a nice background for this wiki too. And please whenever you feel "this is not right" or you don't like a certain change - we can alsways discuss and work on what is the best for the wiki. You are the admin here and I would like to help you to make the wiki a better place for people searching for Baldurs Gate III :) Cyanide3 (talk) 07:19, June 8, 2019 (UTC)

That is completely fine by me having another user within the team. After all it's your wiki and you know what is best for your community. For the mobile main page there is no history, but we could set one MMP up, if you both want to. After all this page will be shown on any mobile device instead of the page you see through the desktop.


 * The games as a gallery is way better, though (see my note above) with reduced icon size.
 * Sure! You can edit the Worksheet if you like to. I was just making a gallery, but I didn't set up a size I really really wanted to have.
 * Perhaps this can be merged with "What is Baldur's Gate" somehow …
 * Yes that could be done. Then again I would shorten it a bit and then set up a link to the real article. If the reader wants to know more about it he can visit the page.
 * If we have "featured videos", I don't really understand why removing "featured images"...
 * Videos deliver the reader a ton of new information in a very short time. This is why videos are very important and it saves up some time for the reader. The readers will likely watch the trailer and then decides if he wants to know more about Baldurs Gate III then to read the full article first and then decide if he likes the videogame or not. As I said: Keep the main page as short as possible. Images are great, but the readers are visiting (mainly) your wiki because of all the new informations and not just for the images. You always have to think about: How would I visit the page as a reader if I am a newbie to all of this?
 * "Helping out" … As far as I know, the policies and help articles were created long time ago and mostly haven't been touched since. And I don't think, they were set up as this wiki's own policy, but simply copied from somewhere else.
 * Alright I didn't know that. Having those links on the main page is fine, but I would keep them simple as in "where to edit, where to get help, admins and what are the rules". Too many links scare them off because then the reader/user will think "Oh my god so many links and policies...okay I better go now."
 * General layout: do you plan to move away from a two-column design? Because on your worksheet there's only one
 * That is only for the worksheet, since the main page has a different design structure.
 * Portals? Like it's done on Dragon Age (or similar)?
 * Portals are okay, but they can be very overwhelming. Better keep one article for one game and then link from the article to the other side-articles as in "Weapons in Baldurs Gate III" or "Monsters in Baldurs Gate III".
 * I do understand the importance of a really new game. I do understand the importance of it and how the wiki handles it for SEO. I know that many people, including staff members, prefer the idea of putting the new stuff to the top.
 * The thing is the people visit your wiki, because they want to know about the new stuff/Baldurs Gate III. And you as a user/admin want to show them the easiest way to get to the article. This is why many wikis put the fresh stuff on the main page or implement the links into the navigation bar. That has nothing to do with the SEO. That is just analysing the readers behaviour and you can change it at anytime once the "hype" is over.
 * Now you want to enable discussions? Who shall moderate those? We have no real community here. Most comments are made by IPs. And by my experience, moderation is needed.
 * Fair enough. That was just a hint, because there are a lot of readers, who only want to talk with others about the game and not set up an account for editing on the wiki. The tool is great for getting people connected sharing the same passion for a videogame.
 * What exactly do you mean with "create a nice background"? Can't we simply use the image that's currently shown in the news section?
 * That was not ment to be as in this background is bad. I just offered my help if you want a new design for the wiki.
 * I know, it's hard to work together with me, being a perfectionist and sometimes demotivating person (and also a control freak) … sorry.
 * That is alright. I would call myself that too. ;-) Cyanide3 (talk) 18:44, June 8, 2019 (UTC)

New Styling!
Great job on the new styling! I am digging it thus far. Now to make an edit or two to my favorite wiki...

The use of serif fonts online is antithetical to what I've read about digital typography (a recurring example from my workplace is here). Serifs looks different, sure, but it works better on paper than in a digital format. It also slows down readers, if I remember correctly, but I can't find where I read that detail...

What did my creation of Key Ring show you needed to fix regarding containers? I am very curious.

CalOkand (talk) 03:24, June 15, 2019 (UTC)

CTM Help for Baldurs Gate III
Hello,

sorry for the late reply, I had some private things going on.


 * I think, this has to become some sort of combination between table and gallery, perhaps using templates for scaling to different screen widths or something … not today, I guess … or?
 * In my worksheet I made a suggestion about a gallery. It's an easy way to show the icons and link to all the articles. Besides it changes and is flexible for different screen sizes.
 * Helping out: The items shown are now reduced almost to your choice, with the exception of keeping wanted pages.
 * That is great! The other links can be listed in the Wiki navigation bar if a reader wants to get deeper into detail with wiki editing.
 * This is a compromise due to the importance of the new stuff, so it shows up first, but only on the front page. But don't underestimate the old games – they made up the cult, the new one is trying to become part of.
 * I do not underestimate them at all. In fact they are a great addition to this wiki and should never be left out. Just now the readers want to know evrything about the new game and then come back and reread everything about the old games. Besides after the "hype train" is over you can create the main page to a bit of a general overview where not everything is focussed on Baldurs Gate III.
 * Well, it's now linked by the icon in the main page's top section, it's linked by name in the section directly below, "News", and it is linked by name in the right top section, the feeds. Want more? ;)
 * MOAH! No just kidding. That is completely fine. :D
 * If the work that has to be done for it doesn't annoy me too much, I will try to create a new logo for the wiki – as a start for a new design; though this will cost me some time.
 * I am pretty sure once the game will get more promo material there will be some nice and decent pictures on the website and you can use them for a new background.
 * You don't have access to MediaWiki namespace?
 * You mean access to MediaWiki:Commin.css and Wiki.css? I do.
 * Once discussions are enabled, there's no return to a forum, I guess?
 * The Forum will not be supported since it's an old feature and discussions are "the new thing" (The hip and cool stuff). But yes it is not possible to highlight a discussion, which then will be shown on the wiki for everybody. I can't say when or how the forums will retire. I am pretty sure the date will be published on Community Wiki. In conclusio: The change will happen but it has no date yet. If you want to bring some new ideas to Fandom you can write the staff team via Special:Contact.
 * Shall we display article headers of games (and some others) as shown currently on Baldur's Gate III? Or is this a bad idea?
 * Before I understand the question the wrong way: Where do you want to display them?

Cyanide3 (talk) 18:50, June 15, 2019 (UTC)

PS: Ja ich war auch mal im Sims Wiki. Ich bin überall ;-)

RU Baldur's Gate Wiki
Hello! I'm Mapmaker Lich (simply Lich), member of RU FANDOM Squadron (volunteer editors who helping perspective wikis) and currently I am working at RU Baldur's Gate Wiki. I'm already established interlanguage links, but... Can you add link to RU Wiki on the mainpage?  -- Added by Mapmaker Lich (talk • contribs)


 * That form of signature created red links, so I've substituted it. ;)


 * Uhm, I'm answering here, because
 * I prefer it that way;
 * there wasn't a working link to your talk page before;
 * and I even didn't know – without researching – who was talking with me.


 * I've added the link. You say you've "already established interlanguage links" – where? At least not on a single one of the eight articles that wiki has as of now. Would be nice, you'd really do that. And then also here, because I don't know, except for Imoen, what those are about. ;)
 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 14:10, June 22, 2019 (UTC)


 * Okay, one of the eight, the main page. I've linked the other seven there and here now. Do you think, your wiki will grow?


 * Perhaps you're interested in taking a look on our main page news? ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 14:38, June 22, 2019 (UTC)

Fonts
I'm not Fandom staff; I do web work for my job and have had to absorb a lot of web and online design ideology. I like the font you used. It will work well; godspeed implementing it...

I think it would look pretty cool if you made it appear in the floating text for the games!

CalOkand (talk) 02:43, June 25, 2019 (UTC)

Accomplishments
Hey C, the boss is thinking of putting together a monthly blog post about notable accomplishments or events on wikis that we work with. Since the BG3 announcement, you've made some big changes around here, right? Anything in particular that is noteworthy and that you'd like to have mentioned? &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 23:51, June 26, 2019 (UTC)
 * And by the time you think I've done a good job here, I disappear from the screen … 😉
 * No, really, do you think I've made "big changes" since then, Moviesign, something noteworthy? Was there actually more than just a change in style? Not so sure …
 * Do you have a link to such news (I guess, some staff blog)? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:54, August 26, 2019 (UTC)
 * No, really, do you think I've made "big changes" since then, Moviesign, something noteworthy? Was there actually more than just a change in style? Not so sure …
 * Do you have a link to such news (I guess, some staff blog)? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:54, August 26, 2019 (UTC)

New Community Page Header Image
Check out the new image on Special:Community :) You can use it however you wish, of course, I just thought it would look good there. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 21:42, June 28, 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing me to that page – another one of those things I always forget to care about. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:00, August 26, 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing me to that page – another one of those things I always forget to care about. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:00, August 26, 2019 (UTC)

Greeting
Thanks for your welcome message! I've been playing through Baldur's Gate with a Wizard Slayer and decided to make some corrections/updates to that page. I especially wanted to correct the error that a WS cannot wear magical boots. This kit is underrated, I think, and I want to make sure everyone has the best info. on it.TheTurnipKnight (talk) 14:57, August 3, 2019 (UTC)

Abusive Editor
You or another admin may want to review the contributions of the IP editor who recently vandalized your talk page. While some of their edits seem to be legit, at least one that I spotted contained incorrect info, and several of their messages were rude or downright abusive towards other editors. Thanks! – Robin Hood  (talk)  01:07, August 4, 2019 (UTC)

Artimis – August 18
Hello CompleCCity,

I have a question about listing AC in a creature infobox. I post this reprint from a reply you left on the AC page...

"So, what your inventory or character screen shows you as (effective) armor class is what you have as AC. As I mentioned above, most (if not all) ACs on creatures here on the wiki that are stated in their infoboxes will not reflect the armor they're wearing. So you'd also have to check their inventory (also in the infobox, if it's complete) or any possible "Gameplay" sections. If you see a creature with an AC below 10 that's wearing armor, you (for the moment) would have to calculate the factual effective AC. (Applying changes to the infobox that allow implemented display of all bonuses by equipment is a huge effort.)"

I think you're over complicating this concept. OK so almost every NPC in the game has a natural AC of 10. Add on armor or any other wearable item and this changes their AC, that's a fact. So EE Keeper does the work for you because the NPC's current AC is listed between base and effective AC. That's the number that counts right? To me, listing in the infobox profile that natural AC is 10, in and by itself, is not providing the complete picture.

Let's use Gretek as an example. I'm looking at his EE profile and base and effective AC are 10. Add the effects of Plate Mail and a Large Shield and now it's 6. So in battle, that's what you're up against right? So my suggestion is to add a Modified AC line next to Natural AC in the infobox and there ya go.

Not many creatures (some NPC's and a few monsters) alter their AC in combat, if I remember correctly. Some quaff a potion although I can't recall how many actually hit up a bottle of Stone Form or Potion of Defense. Some magic users alter their AC but the spell cast is usually listed in the running action dialogue and if one plays in true turn based play, there is the ability to react after calculating any added AC effect. But this is something that should never be attempted to be listed in the infobox. That's something that should be written about/noted in the descriptive area of the creature profile.

Think about it, these creature profiles are not going to change, they're set to what they are, and all we do is extract the data from EE Keeper and slap it into the infobox, which provides a hell of a lot better look than dealing with EE Keeper. Ok so it would be some work to go back and add this to every creature infobox, but Rome wasn't....and when I get bored with other aspects of life, I come over here for a few months and play this goofy game and have fun turning my mind off for awhile. Excuse me while I light my spliff......

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 17:25, August 18, 2019 (UTC)

CompleCCity – August 27
Hello, Artimis! Once a highly active contributor here, but when I started you were gone. Now you've returned – while I was in sort of a minor hiatus … but finally we meet! 🙂

Uhm, I didn't speak of adding stat changes to the infobox that happen due to any combattant quaffing potions or casting spells – that's indeed stuff for a gameplay section. But implementing such alterations that are based on other stats or a creature's inventory is an idea for some day in the future – e.g. by adding a line "Modified AC" (or similar).
 * Take a look at this related discussion on the Icewind Dale Wiki.

But, have I probably misunderstood your comment? The in-fact 'effective' AC that's shown by EE Keeper (not so by the original editions' Keepers) does not include inventory (or any effects), it just calculates the modification by dexterity. (By the way, I always use Near Infinity for such things.)

Hm … I don't exactly get that "over complicating" thing … -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 09:48, August 27, 2019 (UTC)

Artimis – August 27
Hello CompleCCity,

Ya I became aware of this wiki just before Islandking made his appearance (or maybe he was a she, I never bothered to inquire, but it was fun working with Islandking before I had to move on to other endeavors.). Funny to see that Islandking has retired. The wiki has come along way and looks really good. When I came onboard the wizard and priest spell pages were a mess. So that's where I concentrated much of my input. Also adding new NPC pages and updating images. Did a bunch of work to the Isle of Balduran area as there was hardly anything created for much of the Tales stuff. Now I'm back to just adding and updating NPC/Creature pages. That's fun stuff for me :) Gonna be adding some new stuff right after this post.

Ya I have to eat some crow on that overcomplicated statement. After posting that, I went back and tested on Gretek some more and quickly realized my error of not incorporating Dex/Str bonuses into the AC/THAC0 equation. Not to mention what Con does to HP. So it is more complicated than I imagined when those bonuses are added to what a creatures inventory is, then yikes, it does get tough to follow, SSSHHEESH!!! I figured that the black number that isn't in the box was the final number. Nope. Doesn't include inventory items. You are correct.

It's too bad the creators of this bloody game didn't just created a program that gave the player a stat page, similar to what the party members have, that could be accessed when clicking on said NPC/Creature. Now I'm not all that tech/code savvy but is there a way to tap into the actual game code that determines the player character stats? If that were possible, might it help you figure out a way to code up something for the infobox?

Islandking also tried to get me to use NI, but I haven't figured it out yet. EE Keeper is easier. But in this latest go around with making additions to the wiki, I have become hipper on how a creature interacts with your player character.

And don't worry about being a perfectionist and love of detail and all that, yer German, it's in the DNA brother. I'm half German too, so it courses thru my veins also.

Cheers

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 21:22, August 27, 2019 (UTC)

CompleCCity – August 28
Hello, Artimis! (Where's your name from, if I'm allowed to ask?)

I wouldn't exactly attribute this to something like "German DNA" – it's in my DNA due to my heritage, but not for being a German. (And half of it may be learned or acquired rather than being in my genes. 😉 )

This includes, by the way, an urge to have control over things – I'm a control freak as well, which is why currently I'm less contributing but checking all the (unpatrolled) edits made during my absence (will cost me some time).

Yeah, Islandking – 't was a good time with … him, which I used first after having asked to be allowed to do so – I mean, "king", you know? But later I became unsure of this, and after the retirement I started to use neutral pronouns.

Though, while working with them felt and was good, we sometimes had very different opinions on how things should look or be done here on the wiki. Honestly, there's a good part of their work that I have changed later to match more my vision of this (of a) wiki – a vision that constantly evolves and changes, probably will never be complete and needs lots and lots of work.

As for different opinions: I just noticed several changes of yours to Faizah Tin – it might happen that some of them get reverted by me in the near future. Why, for example, did you remove the Felonius Gist's Statues section? Or the lock difficulty of the manor? And I have to check the notes, if there are indeed so many differences between the games … Also, in my opinion it's better to have only one link rather than two subsequent ones, where it's not obvious for the reader that it does matter if they're clicking on the first or second word to get there – even if this means "less information". I'm speaking of your change from  to. An alternative to include both links would be to change the wording in a way that the latter link doesn't follow the former directly anymore; on the other hand should the location offer a link to the person right at the start, so two links might be considered as redundant.

For the non-present line breaks in the spell list you added in your latest edit: back then when I expanded the page, that was my way to distinguish between spell levels; nowadays, every spell gets a new line from me as well. 😉 (Also, back then I didn't have access to the Enhanced Editions – probably as you with the original games.)

If I'm making changes to someone's edit, I always try to put an explanation into the edit summary, so you know where to look if you've got questions. But my talk is always open, as well.

Regarding all these game icons and symbols: those – and how they're to be used – was one of the mentioned major debates between Ike (I'm allowed to use this short form of their name 😉 ) and me. The list now has some more entries, but the template names have become longer. The ones with "infobox" are smaller than those for "article"s, while "12" and "16" serve the same purpose (use 12 in IB and 16 on page). At some places in the infobox the icon looks better when placed before the content, at other places it looks better behind – you have to see for yourself which is more neat, but I'm trying to establish a pattern for – as of now, at least – items.
 * There's an issue with these icons and the VisualEditor: after somebody has VE-edited a page where these appear in the main article text, often line breaks are automatically added before and after them, completely breaking the whole page layout. Please, have an eye on this.

I've also widely expanded the infoboxes and added lots of auto-categorization, which you certainly will have noticed. Take a look at their category, to see if you can agree with what I put there as "How to fill" and perhaps get some updates on that topic. If infobox parameters are changed by me (added, renamed, deprecated), expect this to be shown "immediately" in the copy-paste section of each template, so it's advised to use those rather than copying from existing articles.

The one I put the most effort into "recently" is the infobox item. The infobox creature has the most complex auto-cat system, but that isn't complete as of now. If you're interested in what's missing there, we can open an additional discussion over there on its talk page. Currently I don't see me implementing the above requested additional features in the near future – first I'd like to continue where I stopped with the creature categories. (This isn't cut in stone, however. 😉 ) Regarding the latter IB – plan is to substitute the infobox for all companions with it, which is why the parameters from that one are now included. And there's also a infobox creature redux for certain (documented) purposes.

And no, I don't know of any other tool than the two already mentioned ones to get creature stats, except for using the method, Ineth described in that IWDW discussion.

The list of templates has also been largely expanded, most of them with documentation. There's e.g. ft, ol and pp for thieving abilities related information (difficulties); with location you can add area code and coordinates; count and infinitely can be used to give the number of an item sold by a merchant or how often a spell is memorized; conditional recolors text and is used where there is more than one option (but often can use additional bold and/or italic formatting); and side note speaks for itself (I hope). 😉

Also, there are many, many redirects for singular/plural things and various forms of capitalization. Those are intended to be used. 🙂

So much for an update. Don't know, yet, how many of these you've already found by yourself – if so, then you can jump the info above in smaller or larger parts.

Looking forward to a constructive future of the wiki with a veteran editor. (Say, did you have any additional user rights in the past?)

-- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:52, August 28, 2019 (UTC)

P.S. You should take a look at this. 😉

Artimis – August 30
Hello CompleCCity,

Artimis is in reference to Artimus Pyle, he was a drummer for Lynyrd Skynyrd. And Grimshaw is just a take off of scrimshaw. And Daddy-O, you can ask me any question you want. I'm not PC at all and there ain't nothing you could say or do that would offend me. That was a bit of a difference between Islandking and me. IMO, this is a boys game. Now chicks want to play, more power to 'em, but when you read how a lot of spells are written, it's the wizard or priest, "he, him" not they them. When you see that (  He, She) business, that's all Islandking there. But then when he got the "keys to the vault" and ran with it, I wasn't too hip on the abrupt changes that were happening. So I split. I picked the game up again a few months ago because I knew that there were pages of certain NPC's (towards the end of the game) that had never been created. So when I checked the wiki and saw that it had returned to some normalcy and several of those NPC's still didn't have pages, then I figured I dive back in and write them up. So now you have the keys to the hot rod and your in the driver's seat. Just remember, every leader eventually leaves the scene, and on an open source site, people love to fiddle.

When I first started playing the original game and begun to get hip to the mechanics of how it worked and the different paths that could be taken when interacting with all of the creatures in the game, it always bothered me that I'm not given enough information about the creature I'm up against. During a battle, "how many hit points does the creature have to begin with or remaining when in an actual combat situation?", was always a big WTF. But there was nothing out there in internet land that could help. So I started a spreadsheet and every time I interacted with a creature, I'd test and re-test to identify how many Hit Points said creature has. Because even with the EE stuff, barely injured, injured, and badly injured still doesn't tell me squat. I also recorded XP and items too. So when this wiki came around, WOW!!!, now I have a source for real time info. Sweet. So then one gets the itch to add info, update stats and all that jazz. And like Gatekeeper, EE Keeper is great at getting the goods on any creature now. The wiki just makes it look nicer ;)

I try not to step on toes when I edit a page, but sometimes the grammar and choice of words is....lacking, so I beef it up. As for the Felonius Gist stuff; I pulled the Statue info because it's redundant and makes the page too cumbersome. Plus that's a great part of the joy of exploring this site. Hit a link and see where it takes you. Sorry about the lock difficulty. It didn't link to anything so I figured it must have been something someone way back slapped up there and never did anything with it.

As for the differences between games.....now there's a can of worms that stares at me from it's spot on the shelf, constantly daring me to open it, if you know what I mean. Is it even worth having that info on the site considering that, with the latest EE version, the game plays the way it was envisioned too by it's original creators twenty years ago. 99.9% of the bugs in the game have been addressed, spells work the way they're supposed to, dialogue is now correct (including grammar), certain creatures have been altered (for better or worse). There's no way I could go back and pop them discs into my computer, considering I don't even have them anymore. I approach it as purely a nostalgia thing, because honestly, who would want to go back and play the original version. Not I. Although I do feel the current "look" of the game, the whole interface or what you stare at when you play the game, looks rather stale to me. I like the original look much better. Even some of the earlioer EE versions looked better. Iwas noticing this while crusing some images last week.

Now when it comes to updating a page, if I see info on the page that doesn't correspond to how the game plays now, than I naturally assume that that is original BG stuff and so I place it in the Notes section and state as much with an icon (The left to right position of the statues in Gist's Manor are a good example).

I agree with your one link to two concept and I think over-linked pages are ridiculous, but that was a situation where I thought seperate links to Gist and the manor were warranted. Unless you go by my less is more theory of follow the link and see what opens up. Than yes it could be reduced to just a link to the manor. And when I contemplate it, yes the statues really have nothing in common with Gist besides being in his house, so change it back. I'll make the edit as soon as I post this reply.

Game Icons - like the concept, they're more pleasing to the eye than superscripted BG and BGEE. Will use the different sizes in the places you mentioned. As for before or after. Looks fine the way it is, i.e., Race - after and Weapon Proficiency - before (using Faizah Tin as an example). And yes, I did notice the visual editor quirkiness. Will work to keep it in check.

I'll use the templates going forwards. That's a lot of work there my boy. More power to ya!! Naw I never gained any user rights. Don't feel it necessary to have that much control. My contributions are more of a passive nature.

Now I do have a bit of a problem with one thing. References. I feel that they are not needed. This is a computer game with absolutely zero real world implications or consequences. We all know where the info comes from, it's static and nobody's pulling info from other seperate sites to added to this stuff (besides linking to Forgotten Realms stuff). So in my opinion, ditch the references.

Second, I also think that coordinates are unneeded too. Sure back in the day when there wasn't a Revile Details button to help with locating difficult to find hidden stashes, Ring of Wizardry or Ankheg armor come to mind, that coordinates were helpful. But when it comes to NPC or monster locations, let the player find out on their own. Because pretty soon there will be a gallery for every character or building showing their location, although I might not be the person who creates all of this, per say (South Park reference). I also think it tends to clutter up the infobox.

Weapons Proficiency - Just recently I actually paid attention to the Miscellaneous tab on a creature profile in EE Keeper and noticed that 'Legacy Proficiencies" box and how it is sometimes populated for certain creatures. My question to you since you have Infinity is, does that have any impact in the current EE? I assumed it didn't so that would explain why I added the Original BG icon to the first stats and the EE icon to the next. And if the collective "we" are going to list this than I sorta..sorta, feel that listing a "none" for EE is appropriate to reduce possible confusion by novices to the game (although they are probably asking themselves, "What the hell is this Original Baldur's Gate?" ) HA!. Although maybe it's available on Steam, I've never bothered to look.

One other thing you may have observed is that back when I was updating the spell pages, someone had occasionally put in the text section, what to me were opinions about game play, so I moved them to the comments and added the "anonymous" tilde to it. And speaking of spell pages, they're looking kinda disjointed again. Some have the scroll (an addition that I thought was most appropriate and so that's what I went with) at the top while others have this tiny image that looks really crappy. But I ain't gonna fix 'em. I had it set once and Islandking fiddled first and others have come along and mimic'd that mess. I'm sticking strictly to creature pages for now....awwww come on laugh.....

Ya we'll have some fun buttin' heads. But you're in the drivers seat, I'm in the back seat playing with the buttons and watching the world go by.

Happy Friday and remember...it's just another day to the trees.

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 00:24, August 30, 2019 (UTC)

CompleCCity – August 30
Lynyrd Skynyrd – my, then you might be even older than me, Artimis. 😄 You said it: "there ain't nothing [I] could say or do that would offend [you]". 😉

Uhm, "PC" – political correct? Then I hope, I'm not making you split from here as well, because I also try to use e.g. gender neutrality where it should be done.

You're right with saying that a lot of descriptions in-game use(d) male pronouns, but there are (or were) female pronouns as well. That's because the developers tried to stick with the underlying pen-and-paper wording as far as possible. And as far as I know, the rulebooks try to be neutral by using "he/him" and "she/her" alternating: one spell has male pronouns, the other uses female ones, then male ones again, etc. Then there's "  " (and similar things) which is game-code (and only visible when examining things with NI or reading item and spell descriptions with the Keeper browsers) and automatically adjusts the used pronoun according to the gender of the affected character – if you have a male bard reading a spell description, he is referred to, while your female mage finds herself addressed. I think, the EE replaced some of the fixed pronouns from the original games with this, but I'm not sure. My preference in such a case would be to replace "  " with either "[they]", "[them]" or – if applicable – "gw" (another new template which simply creates – correct with square brackets, how it should be done in edited citations).

I don't know about "abrupt changes", but, please, talk to me before splitting due to disagreement or annoyance. (And don't call me "leader" – I've only administrative rights.)

"I pulled the Statue info because it's redundant and makes the page too cumbersome."

You name it "cumbersome", I call it part of a "character model page". Okay, not back then, but indeed that section should serve as what I later titled "biography". Take a look at Sil, Meiala and the Sirine Queen – it's some time ago I expanded these articles, but they reflect how I think a good character/creature article should look like. (I never really have cared about this wiki's model pages; and, honestly, some of those …) Also, and opposed to Ike's opinion, I do think that such stuff, and lore, and such, earns a more prominent place on articles – this wiki is not only about all the technical stuff.

A second thought when placing that section was to implement a connection to the by me created category:Encounters, which I think is a good thing but needs way more work and expansion.

"Sorry about the lock difficulty. It didn't link to anything so I figured it must have been something someone way back slapped up there and never did anything with it."

Yeah, back then ol still was to be created.

As for the UI: you might be interested in this thread – especially those by Lefreut look good.

But as this is a wiki, and as such an encyclopedia, it should serve as a knowledge database and not care about "nostalgia" or "outdated" or such. I do plan to play through the original games (from GOG, not from CDs, which I own nevertheless), just to be able to make some better (and matching!) creature and quest screenshots from the originals. There were many changes applied (already with BGII), e.g. the Candlekeep Watchers look completely different. (I also prefer the old way of handling two-handed weapons like the quarterstaff – an animation that can't be ported back due to how dual-wielding works, sadly.) So, yes, I do think documenting the "old stuff" still has to be done here. 🙂

Actually, that "Felonius Gist's Manor"-link thing was a mistake by me: you do have a separation between both links – the apostrophe. (And in terms of "overlinking" – there I'm not a wikipedian and place the same link again in every new section of an article: somebody can use the TOC and thus skip the previous link, so they find a working one; my philosophy.) Haven't taken a look at your latest edits as I'm writing this …

"That's a lot of work there my boy. More power to ya!!"

Uh… work for you, work for the contributor? Did I make them too complicated? Or don't I get your meaning? Hm…

Ah, okay, and you do seek the discussion. 🙂

References …

Yes, that's some thing I introduced here. My philosophy: if something isn't obvious, it should be cited. And I don't think, "we [always] all know where the info comes from". My thoughts: You don't have to care about references yourself, you don't have to place them – but do they annoy you? I mean, not the potentially additional work for you as a contributor, but as a reader? (I know that if there are many, the layout of the section could need some sort of scroll-box or be collapsed or something …)
 * A leading quote on a creature article doesn't need the "speaker" – it's (almost) always from the article subject.
 * However, giving the source – which state or response from which dialog file (NI stuff) – doesn't hurt, does it?
 * If a quote is edited or shortened, some reader might be interested in the original, so why not placing that also somewhere?
 * If it's not obvious – e.g. via a placed link – why something is stated, cite it. I do this for things that happen e.g. through scripts. For the game, it doesn't matter if mage XYZ has twenty different spells memorized, each ten times – their script tells them which ones to use when and how often. And as everybody will have a different experience when fighting a hostile band of mercenaries (due to how they are managing the battle, how long it lasts, etc.), I think it's good to say which things will happen when and why – and where that info's from.
 * Similar for things that are connected to NPC-only items, which yet aren't listed in the infobox (there are ideas about how to implement those); for example, what causes the creature's immunity to normal weapons or such.

As for coordinates: those were used here from the start. And there are still players around that play the original games and don't have such a revealing feature.

You can find some thoughts about how to implement such things in this thread; it's about items, but there is a section about areas (locations) that would be transferred to other infoboxes as well. I'm also thinking about a (table-like) solution for listing locations of an item/a creature on the article main space.

Weapon proficiencies: if a creature doesn't have assigned new ones, bonuses/penalties from the old system still apply. In fact, there are only really a few creatures (I think) where these have to be distinguished between original BG1 and later games.

"One other thing you may have observed […]"

Not yet. "[…] is that back when I was updating the spell pages, someone had occasionally put in the text section, what to me were opinions about game play, so I moved them to the comments and added the "anonymous" tilde to it."

Bad idea. Not as a wiki should work.

Ike has introduced the section "Gameplay (community)" for such things. So if there are/were such things that can't be rewritten to a less subjective style, move them to such a section instead. And – this is work! – place unsigned or unsignedIP at the end; the work part of this is to research the page history to find the user who added the information (originally), and find date and time. But to the comments? No …

Actually, I don't really agree with such a section; rewriting "strategies" to a less personal tone or specific situation is preferred; then we would have to see, is the "community" opinion still useful and should be kept? A subpage could then be an alternative (PAGENAME/SUBPAGE), as the comments have replaced good old talk pages.

"And speaking of spell pages, they're looking kinda disjointed again. Some have the scroll (an addition that I thought was most appropriate and so that's what I went with) at the top while others have this tiny image that looks really crappy."

Crappy? Crappy? Yeah, you're right … Okay, uhm, take a look at Remove Curse (wizard). That's the – for now intended – future look of spell pages. (Well, not exactly, the scroll will get its own infobox just below.)

It doesn't make sense to give every spell the very same scroll symbol at the top of the IB. Not any sense. Or do you know of some?

Sadly, all spell related icons (spell, scroll, quick bar) are this tiny. I've put many, many thoughts into how to make all three icons perhaps a row, but that's technically very difficult.

Again, I'm not on the driver's seat here, and much less you on the back seat. If at all, you (and the whole community) sit on the (front) passenger seat. Perhaps I'm more of a driving assistance system than the driver themselves; the whole community should drive. (If you still nead a "pilot", refer to this wiki's founder. 😉 )

And I don't intend to butt heads with you. (Or anybody else.)

You're sometimes speaking a language I don't understand ("day to the trees"???) …

Well, okay, I might be off over the weekend or only checking in occasionally. So, have a good one! -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:58, August 30, 2019 (UTC)

Artimis – September 4
Guten Tag my friend,

Oh no you haven't offended nor chased me away. We all good. My wife has a professional pet sitting company and we were super busy this Labor day weekend. And I'm of the age in that I don't possess that itch to have to immediately respond to a post, kinda lazy ya know ;) I'll get around to it. It's that way for everybody so do go thinking that yer special...wink wink...which is what I also meant to say after that buttin' heads comment. I don't butt head either. If it were to come to that then....well....bye-bye. Know what I mean.

Ok Discussion;

He said ..she said - if you want to use they or them I think that would be better than [Gorion's Ward]. My reasoning being that these spells, along with pretty much everything about the game, transcends this individual story/plot. Ya know I never really gave it much thought that if your character was female, the pronouns changed. So I fired up my female character, "Philthy B'otch", and wow, that's pretty groovy how that works. So you go that route or how about this for an idea, assign every spell a number and use a random number generator to give each spell either male or female pronouns every time it's accessed on the wiki. Just some thoughts.

I like the Lore stuff too, considering that I'm not as interested in the technical side of many aspects of the game. But I understand that room must be made for both where needed. Personally I find the expanded dialogue section a complete bore. Makes the page to crowded (cumbersome:)). Would be great it that section could be reduced and expanded as needed. If I want to check out dialogue, I just replay the encounter and go a different route with the dialogue. To me that is more interesting than reading it on a webpage. You get that stuff from NI and I get it from playing the game. But my rationale for removing the Statue info was because it's located on the Statue page, so by having it on each individual NPC page, that's just redundant stuff. Click the link and go explore.

I get it that info pertaining to the Original BG is important, but come on, if you're a fourteen year old kid today picking this game up for the first time, you're not going to be playing the original version. Although I do miss the ability to lure a Ghast down to the entrance of the Nashkel Mine and let it wreak havoc on the guards standing there. That was always fun to watch. But yes I think it is important to reference when changes have been made from the Original to the EE versions. In fact I'm about to make note of this in the Candlekeep caves area page, how Diarmid turns hostile after speaking with him. In EE he doesn't turn hostile, he just splits.

Spell pages - Yes I too gave it much thought when I first undertook the want to make all of the pages similar in design and concept. No way to place a nice sized image of the spell in the infobox, that's why I went with the scroll, because it's right there every time any spell is opened for reading. But now folks have fiddled and now everything is a mess again. Joys of a wiki. To bad one can't import all of these pages for one's own personal use and then you could design them however you'd want. But a man can still dream though.......

Yes I do get a notification when talk has been initiated, but I don't get notified if someone's talking about me. If I get your drift. But you really are the only other contributor to this wiki that I've communicated with. I did post a few questions to some of the old school folks way back when, but I never had in-depth conversation with them. But if you post a reply on your page, which is cool by me, I don't get a notification as far as I know.

Achen Dell - yes I should have never placed the word "In" in front of the game symbol. Bad idea on my part but that's how one learns things. If it hasn't been fixed yet, I'll go back and make the corrections.

I saw you removed Ted from the creature page for "Hunter". I only put that there because the latest version of EE calls him Ted. I saw the discussion about it on Ted's page but if you were referencing the Creature page, there's no mention of Ted.

Charmed - Well I figured that if folks are gonna be charming everyone to see if they have any extra something to spill, then if they don't, why not make note of this. I get it that every now and then, some creature my have an extra little tidbit to reveal about a specific situation or in regards to the overall plot of the game. But I have to circle back to Islandking and how he kinda prodded me to explore a little deeper the origins and history of Balduran to help me produce a good write up of his last voyage. In fact it bums me out a little to see how much of what I created has been removed and/or altered. Spent a huge amount of time researching all of that and creating the pages for it. But this is an open source wiki and folks will fiddle. And like I said before, I don't use NI, I did it all the good ol' fashion way. Playing the game and exploring the different tangents and how they can provide that extra little bit of knowledge that wasn't evident before. And then transfering that knowledge to this site.

Best idea for a (redirecting) pagename for spell scrolls? - I truly think "Scroll of " ( which was in use on this site in some places before I showed up) is the best at conveying that it is an item. I've wrestled with this too and I just can't bring myself to having an appreciation for " (scroll)" as I don't like the parentheses either. Obviously the player knows it's a scroll when found in a lootable "container" or as a drop item, but when referencing it on a page, I always felt that the spell name by itself seemed weak and so I defaulted to the Scroll of Spell method myself. Really haven't thought about a new way to list a spell, but then I don't explore other sites to get ideas. Maybe I should. But there is a little voice inside my head that sez, "Don't do it, you'll just bugger up the mind more than it already is". Ignorance is bliss sometimes is it not?

My two cents:

I think infoboxes should list place after area. It's a logical progression. Area (Candlekeep) as per the map page World Map. Then Place (Candlekeep Catacombs) with an accompanying Location, when necessary, in parentheses, i.e., Candlekeep Catacombs (2nd level). And if someone finds it necessary to put coordinates (Blah), then coordinates too. But I do like your idea of having them linked to a separate page. I'm just not into information overload in a infobox or on the text segment of a page.

I'm currently updating the Caves page and I did remove the Appearances BG/BGEE Icon reference from the text section since it is already provided above the image in the infobox. Plus the "s" at the end of appearances kept dropping off and mucking up the look (that whole Visual Editor conundrum) and I couldn't figure out how to prevent that.

Sarevok and his "people" - Sarevok is a member of the Iron Throne and it is listed as his Organization in the infobox. That makes sense and no need to change it. But I do think that some of these folks he has under his "personal control", for example, Prat and Zhalimar Cloudwulfe, aren't really associated with the Iron Throne. When you read their respective letters, he addresses them in a manner that doesn't give one the impression that there is any connection to the Iron Throne by these NPC's. Tamoko also falls into this situation. Folks that are in the employ of Sarevok but not necessarily the Iron Throne. I mention this because when I created the pages for the six servants of Sarevok on the fifth floor of the Iron Throne Headquarters, some cat (can't remember his name at the moment) came along right behind me and added Iron Throne as an organization to their infoboxes. So I sent him a query as to why and what my reasoning was for them not to be associated with the Iron Throne, but I never got a response back (maybe I scared him off...Ha). Now someone like Tazok, yes he is employed by the Iron Throne, even though he may "report" directly to Sarevok. So I'll pick your brain for thoughts on this concept?

That's about all I have for now. Always a pleasure to talk with you and trade ideas. I've been incorporating a lot of your vision into the infoboxes. I really like to create new images for the wiki, probably the most fun I have with all of this right now. So that's where I'll continue top concentrate my efforts.

Oh and one other thing, do you know where the book "History of Waterdeep IV - Age III, The Bloody Reign of the Guildmasters" can be found? I've tried to acquire a copy of all 58 books available in the game and then finally read them, but I can't find that one. Maybe it's in the Ducal Palace, but I never get access to that place because I usually get bored with the game before I ever reach Chapter 7...ah came on laugh.

Have a great day and we'll be conversing again soon. Gonna be gone for awhile starting Friday but I'll be back.

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 21:14, September 4, 2019 (UTC)

CompleCCity – September 5
Only a single, quick reply on one topic – more will follow later: sorry, mate, but the journey to complete your collection (are you playing a bard, obsessed by tales?) will need you to advance even further than only to the Ducal Palace – apparently the book has fallen under censorship in Baldur's Gate and vicinity, and you have to travel all the way up to Dragonspear Castle or even visit Amn to find a copy. I've updated the article. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 07:26, September 5, 2019 (UTC)

CompleCCity – September 6
Continuation … okay, I'm trying to walk through this step-by-step (or something).

Good day to you, too!

I didn't want to urge you to respond – just noticed, you had been active and asked only to be sure. (And you were right with the meaning of my "ping" – thanks for clarifying that, Artimis (without a link this time).)

I fear, that random number thing for fe/male pronouns won't work here; at least it's far about my technical knowledge about wiki coding. ;) So I stay with neutrals (and use gw only where applicable).

Thinking about some template to style dialog sections since some time, myself, but not with high priority. I've started to move companion quotes to a subpage (/Quotes) – perhaps this would also be a solution for other, extensive pages.

About Ted: you placed his link (from where I removed it again) in the "Baldur's Gate" section of the creatures list – he's still there for the "Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition", the only section where he should be.

"[…] the origins and history of Balduran to help me produce a good write up of his last voyage. In fact it bums me out a little to see how much of what I created has been removed and/or altered […]"

- Artimis Grimshaw

That's sad to hear. Can you provide some more detailed information, especially about these removals? Or give links?

"'Don't do it, you'll just bugger up the mind more than it already is'. Ignorance is bliss sometimes is it not?"

- Artimis Grimshaw

How true.

About areas, places and such in infoboxes: the history of this is that Ike decided to put all info into one field, which is why "place" etc. count as "deprecated" parameters. On the thread I linked, however, there was the idea of – at least – including these fields again; the infobox coding then can care about the presentation. That's perhaps one of the next steps in expanding their functionality …

Removing the "appears in" (or similar) in infoboxes that already show icons, is the intended way, so you're completely right with doing this. :)

Hm … I've left out some topics where I didn't think they needed a reply (or didn't know what to say) – now this has become a rather short post. (I guess, Rik from below here welcomes this. ;)

One more thing: I have to admit that I replied to some of your comments about original 5-CD-version content (inventory), probably not to your liking. ;) (And yes, I do have access to a lot of versions of each game – see the image to the right; however, except for the latest or important ones, I always have to unzip them before being able to read them with NI.)

Have a not too stressing weekend with those pets! -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:24, September 6, 2019 (UTC)

Howdy pardner?
Just logged into Fandom to look over a few things out there at the IWD wiki, so I came over here to check on you. Doing fine? Playing something new or just the usual wiki work?

By the way, the talk page out here looks somewhat strange. Why are all the messages on a single huge thread? Rik Kirtaniya (talk) 17:42, September 1, 2019 (UTC)


 * Don't ask … ;)
 * Just trying to get my life in line; haven't spent time here for nearly two months and have returned only some days ago. Didn't even read your message on Beamdog's, yet. No, nothing new, just the "usual" wiki work. (And my life.)


 * I've noticed the high activity over there, but hadn't time to look after it. Good contributor?


 * But, what are you talkin' about? With this one, there's twelve threads on my talk – some of them a bit longer, admitted. I have a discussion (the one above) with some veteran contributor. Okay, perhaps not that veteran, but highly active before I arrived. Then he was away, but returned when I was away as mentioned above. Now we talk some general wiki things, its direction, PC stuff, updates and changes to infoboxes. (I've even linked an IWDW discussion for him. ;)


 * And you? Semester break? How's studies? (Uh, did we remain on one talk? I ping you on yours, just to be sure …) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 22:16, September 1, 2019 (UTC)

Ah, sorry for not replying sooner. I'd actually been distracted by a lot of things (actually, games!). But before I go on ranting...

Now about that huge thread thing, this is exactly what I was talking about, look at the post below me, it was directly branching off from this thread that I started and even appeared for editing when I was replying to your comment (people need to use the "Heading 2" format more often, alas!), so I put down a blue line THREE BLUE LINES below to barricade our talk from the rest. The message wall system in the IWD wiki is a lot more convenient actually.

Like this!



''See? Clean separate message groups is what we need here. ;) The long ones also get collapsed automatically and can be accessed on their own separate page as well. No confusion as to who is saying what to whom. ;)''

Well, now, as to my part, I'm having a pretty awesome vacation between two semesters. Been trying out a lot of games in this hiatus, which is what is keeping me distracted from everything else. The best I liked is Sid Meier's Civilization VI. Truly amazing game. If you are into strategy and tactical brain-work, definitely try it out.

Other than that, I've played a bit of Fallout New Vegas. Went upto Nipton and blasted the crap out of those murderous legionnaires, and then got distracted by other games, as is usual with me. I also modded my BG2 install with the intention of trying to finish it finally, but didn't even get close to start playing it.

The latest thing I've been doing is playing Oxygen Not Included. It's a real-time-with-pause space-survival, colony management game, and I'm having lots of fun with it. Another game Crosscode is pretty awesome too.

That's almost about it. Didn't study a lot this month cause I'll be doing it anyways a week or so later, and you don't get a long vacation every month. ;)

By the way, I hope everything's going all right for you in real life? You sounded somewhat tired (or was it just bored?) in your last message.

And yes, there's been some contributor(s?) working at the IWDW with a fairly large number of articles, though I am still waiting for a reply to my message on their wall. I had thought about returning to finish up the spell articles, but right now, I'm too engaged with my games to even bother. XD

Rik Kirtaniya (talk) 03:51, September 5, 2019 (UTC)


 * Ha! I've removed those "THREE BLUE LINES" again – no need to put up "barricades", here. ;) (But I've also moved that post up to the thread where it belongs; and added subheadings to that one.)
 * I'm just an old-school person, so I'm attached to good old talk pages …


 * I'm very familiar with what you're saying about e.g. FNV and BG-modding. :) Rest of the games is either not my type or I haven't even heard of them.


 * I'll use a more private place to talk about my life. See ya! -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:33, September 6, 2019 (UTC)

Questions
1 - Floors go up while levels go down...correct? So buildings have "floors" while dungeons have "levels".

2 - Is it possible for you to remove the term "Floors" from the area infobox in the layout section? That term is really unnecessary if floors go up and levels go down. It should just read as "Layout".

3 - The "Return to Candlekeep" quest shouldn't be considered a "quest" since it is a designed progression of the game. Sure you can sneak past all of the monsters and NPC's on all three levels and return to Baldur's Gate, but if you don't know this as a player, than the game won't continue until you exit the caves. Plus your only "reward" is now you get to complete Chapter 7. I look at this in the same light as the Drow Underground in SOA. If you don't figure out how to get out, the game doesn't continue to the next Chapter. To me a quest is: get a request to accomplish something, complete it, and get a reward (Gold and/or a magical item, XP, and a reputation increase).

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 02:09, September 5, 2019 (UTC)

And a little tidbit about me. I was born on Halloween. So we both have B-days in October.

Artimis Grimshaw (talk) 02:11, September 5, 2019 (UTC)


 * First, the area infobox is the one I've made the least changes to, IIRC. (Was focussing on creatures, items and – to a lesser extent – spells and abilities.) I'd prefer to defer that for some point of time when I'm ready for that infobox. However, those templates are not protected – everyone can edit them (which I would monitor intensely, though). So, perhaps you …
 * On the other hand, the games almost always use the term "level" for each, so a different approach might be better.


 * As "Return to Candlekeep" is a valid journal entry and is handled by the Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition itself as a quest, I don't see why we shouldn't follow this.
 * To me a "quest" is everything that's noted in the journal (and gets a header in the EE).
 * However, I'm not sure about it really being handled as a "quest" (and currently can't check this in-game – no savegame near that point), but there's still the category:Journal entries with no quest (I created).


 * Were you a trick or a treat? (And I suppose, you knew this question will arise when telling that.) ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:50, September 6, 2019 (UTC)

Sendai
Sendai is unique in that she conjurs up 7 copies of herself, each with ver different stats (cleric, fighter, theif, etc.). How would you recommend documenting that? Would one use 7 redux boxes on her page, or maybe put the boxes on the page dealing with that battle?

GorionsWard (talk) 13:38, September 7, 2019 (UTC)


 * The best page for it would be the related quest, Sendai's lair, I think. Which yet doesn't exist.
 * On the other hand, they are creatures of their own … but eight infoboxes on one page?
 * Then there's the issue of two being the same class, Cleric / Mage …


 * If you want to do the work, you could – for now – create subpages to Sendai:


 * Sendai/Cleric
 * Sendai/Fighter
 * Sendai/Assassin (or Sendai/Thief?)
 * Sendai/Berserker
 * Sendai/Fighter/thief (which would appear as a subpage to Sendai/Fighter – not ideal; on the other hand, she looks like a thief, not as the kensai she has as her kit in this form)
 * Sendai/Mage
 * Sendai/Cleric/mage (again the sub-sub-page thing)
 * Some need for or confuse templates at the top. Perhaps additional notes about her visual appearance.


 * Use the full infobox for them. With some tweaks, these pages than could be transcluded on other pages. If there's need, they can be changed to the reduced IB later.
 * Perhaps the content will be moved some day; or the whole pages. But we would have the info for a start.


 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:37, September 7, 2019 (UTC)

Saving Throws
Hello... I'm working on the Saving Throws page, which has a couple of "odd" comments.

"When a creature has a saving throw score of 20 (the worst possible, the engine doesn't allow higher values), they will auto-fail to save, similar to how attacks auto-hit a helpless or time stopped creature, both situations actually bypass the whole ST/THAC0 system. In this case, any save modifier less than 20 is ignored, but, a save modifier of 20 or more will override it and always succeed."

I used EE keeper to set my save vs. poison to 20. When I go into the game, my character record correctly reflects my score as "14 (-6)" (since 20-6=14). I then let The Ravager hit me with his ranged attack (which has a 33% chance to poison), but I still see messages such as "Save vs. Death: 19", which I shouldn't see if the remark was referring to a creature's base score. I could try changing my base score to 26 so that my effective score is 20. I have no doubt that would fail every time, but I'm not aware of an effect that offers users a 20+ bonus to their saving throw, are you?

If you're not aware of such large bonuses, I wonder if it has any practical application? Should I keep it around?

GorionsWard (talk) 17:17, September 9, 2019 (UTC)

I have to admit that this article, together with THAC0, belongs to those I never have paid much attention to. As you said yourself: makes the head hurt.

I also have to admit – though indeed knowing a lot of things regarding Near Infinity and many other game mechanics – that I'm not really familiar with the whole rolling thing (and often don't understand my own combat log), and in those cases simply ignore it. 🙄

To me it appears as if the article takes some theoretical things into consideration, things that will not occur in-game, but are part of the mechanics or rules. I'd say, do your rewriting and then we'll see if there's info that has to be restored. I think, the page will benefit from this anyway. (You can create a draft in your sandbox first, which we could discuss then.)

Some tips for testing:
 * add the following lines to your  (see console for more info) – for the most complete combat log (though it's really large and cluttered, then):

SetPrivateProfileString('Game Options','Extra Combat Info','1') SetPrivateProfileString('Game Options','Extra Feedback','1')


 * try to fiddle around with NI and change the ravager's item abilities (but make a backup before if the two items already are in the game's override folder; and don't forget to delete them again later)
 * you could also use NI to change the e.g. ST bonus of your equipment, and give you a ring of protection +20 (with an additional regeneration ability); see the note about a backup above
 * if you can't wear such a ring due to other equipment, right-click it with NI, "add copy of", chose a item-filename and edit that one; this then isn't in the  and it won't be checked if you're wearing magical armor (you'd have to use the console or EE Keeper to add it to your inventory)

Looking forward to your work. (Though I might have not much time or many opportunities to give feedback or answer questions in the next couple days.) -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:06, September 9, 2019 (UTC)

Oops... i just saw your reply. 8-| As always, feel free to modify my changes. I'm curious about your reactions to the writing style section after reading my content regarding bonuses being both +/-. I don't feel I have the right to alter that section, but it seems like a good idea (going forward) to recommend that folks just use the terms bonus/penalty and omit the sign.

GorionsWard (talk) 19:51, September 9, 2019 (UTC)

Too many changes to check in detail. Overall, it looks good.

The "- bonus" and "+ penalty" may still be used in infoboxes. That passage might need a better distinction between scores and rolls and where/when the bonus/penalty is applied to, with examples.

I've edited the lead – not sure about having modified only old content or changes that were applied by you; see for yourself.

I've also inserted (commented out) original descriptions from the games' manuals and P'n'P source material, to have some text to be used as examples or inspiration for further edits.

And I've finally moved the page to proper capitalization (away from header style) and singular – something I had intended to do since a very long time …

Can't say how often I will be here from this afternoon on (just now, a couple hours left) until next Monday; see ya! -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:22, September 10, 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look.

I'm not sure how you prefer to work. I can either bring up suggested changes and leave it up to you to decide if and how they should be implemented, or I can attempt the change myself and let you revert or alter it. Unless you have a preference, I'll attempt changes and let you react.

I think the intro looks better but i wanted to bring up a couple of points to think about. I know the original article talked about a "source" but I found that term slightly confusing. For example if an enemy mage casts fireball, is the source the mage or the fireball itself? To avoid that, i tried using the term "effect". While this has the slight advantage of being consistent with the code, it's still ambiguous since it can be confused with "status effect" (which doesn't include damage). I've attempted to clarify both terms.

The following statements you made got me thinking, "... rolls a d20 dice that may be modified by optional bonuses or penalties attached to the effect's source. The result of this roll must meet or exceed the creature's applicable saving throw score, including their own modifiers ..." It made me wonder how the game does it:
 * 1) roll >= modified target
 * 2) modified roll >= target
 * 3) modified roll >= modified target

Mathematically, any of these would work, but each would produce different feedback. For example, i removed most of my solo guy's gear which left him with a -3 bonus to death (vs. the ravager's +2 penalty). I then went to meet the ravager (we're getting to be good friends) and let him chunk daggers at me. [It's not a healthy relationship.]
 * If the game used the first approach, my unmodified rolls would be compared to a modified target of 3-3+2=2
 * If the game used the 2nd approach, my modified rolls would be compared to an unmodified target of 3
 * For the last approach, if the target's modifiers are applied to the roll and the effect's modifiers are applied to the score, my modified rolls would be compared to a modified target of 3+2=5.

I was lucky, because his very first dagger throw connected and resulted in the feedback of "Save vs. Death: 2", which implies the first approach (since the other approaches wouldn't have saved on a 2). The first approach makes sense, considering that the character record also modifies the score; why have the character record modify scores but have the feedback modify rolls? Even if the actual comparison operation uses some hidden approach, when it comes to the user explanation, I'm thinking it makes more sense to be consistent with the UI.

To reflect this point of view, I modified the into and tweaked the bonus/penalty discussion in the body.

GorionsWard (talk) 17:08, September 10, 2019 (UTC)

My computer has been randomly hanging for the last several months and i've just ignored it. I'm going to reinstall Windows to see if that resolves the problem. if i disappear, that's why. in regards to my last round of edits, i'm sure whatever you choose to do will be fine. :)

GorionsWard (talk) 12:41, September 11, 2019 (UTC)

I hate wikiing from a phone, so just one short thing: I've no problem with you applying your changes to that page and after a week I see the results - if you have no issues with me making further modifications (if larger, then not without discussion). ;) -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:54, September 11, 2019 (UTC)

Gazetteer
I've had my copy of Descent into Avernus pre-ordered for weeks. And there is a section called "Baldur's Gate Gazetter"! Source: Someone who shared a preview of content on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KatoKatonian/status/1169317646698975232

But, yeah, I still do not know in which video where I'd heard that phrase first.

I hope you are well!

CalOkand (talk) 19:07, September 12, 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi!


 * Took myself some time off the wiki, but am back almost as regular as before since one and a half month or such. Luckily, I don't take this administration stuff as serious as before, don't see it as my absolute duty to check in daily anymore. So, am I well? Yes, I suppose, perhaps even better. :)


 * Still, I'm not in the mood to care too much about BG3 (and Avernus) and all the related news.
 * But if you're in possession of Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus (FRW link) soon (release: tomorrow [UTC]), you're very much invited to create this article and add all information to it that's important for our wiki (while perhaps also expanding the trivia for the city of Baldur's Gate). :) Don't feel forced, however – if you wish to do this, do it in your own time, and to an extent you're willing to do. (There might be other readers who could contribute to and expand it, as well.)


 * If you learn anything about that gazetteer being a download somewhere, tell me. See ya! -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:59, September 16, 2019 (UTC)

Transcluding Stealth
Hi there. I've been working on the Stealth page with the hope that it could replace the related info on the Thief, Ranger and Monk pages. Right now, the stealth page has a few sections: intro, mechanics, gameplay, gear. I'm thinking only the mechanics and gameplay sections need to be included on the class pages.

I tried reading up a bit on the transclusion process, and from what I can tell, you can only transclude entire pages/templates. Is that right? Does that mean I'd need to push the mechanics and gameplay content into their own pages or templates and then transclude them everywhere else (including the stealth page)?

Can you offer any guidance/thoughts on this?

GorionsWard (talk) 15:04, September 13, 2019 (UTC)


 * Without installing extensions to the wiki, you can transclude parts of a page by putting the wanted text inside  tags. These can be placed several times on the article. To transclude infobox content would be more complex, though. You can then transclude these passages by writing (e.g.)   on the article that shall show the transclusion – with the following restrictions: all passages within the   tags will be put together, there's no way – as far as I know – to separate them and place not-included text between them; and all pages that shall transclude will show the same content. (Damage would be an example page with such transclusions.)


 * If this isn't the way you want to use it, you'd have to create the "data templates" you mentioned or specific templates to define to-transclude sections on the source article. Looking at the current version of the wiki's MediaWiki, I guess that the extensions I mentioned above will yet not work. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 22:31, September 13, 2019 (UTC)

Baldur's Gate Tables
Hey can there be a set of simple to use tables / lists for spells and scrolls and potions?

I am open to where ever they may be located. It is just that I want them have a home. I have my own lists of spells and potions and what not but I would rather give my lists to the community than to waste them only used on my computers.

You know more than I do about how a wiki is organized (for example am I even sending a message correctly here?X-D) although you must admit ergonomics are important? How should these spells and item tables be made? Can you create a template page or the proper format example and I can migrate my lists onto these pages so everyone wins? Even if they are optional tables they can still be useful; like an index for a book, optional but useful for conveniently recalling information.

-- Added by WithinAmnesia (talk • contribs)


 * This would be the "correct" way of talking to me, though you could also have used the related topic on your own talk. (And you forgot your signature.) It's most common that a reply is put on the poster's page, so I should now rather leave my response there, but it's also not uncommon (and preferred by me) to leave it here: one thread on one page, easier to follow – though you won't get a notification about someone having left a message for you, only that my talk was edited. (Advantages and disadvantages for both options.)


 * There's a number of such overview articles/tables. (It always should be at least a bit more than just a table.) A mixture of your Potion Value Table and potions would be fine, as mentioned inside the proposal of deletion. Books is another of these overviews. You started gems which wasn't there before; see also ornamental and semi-precious stones for more such overviews (separated into categories; could perhaps be in one table). Spells are alphabetically organized in their category, but that's only a list. There's priest spells, however, and (WIP) wizard spells, alongside their predecessors for separate games.
 * What additional information would you want to put into all these? Where do they lack? Which additional tables do you have in mind? Tell me of your concept, and we can see what of it and how it can be implemented. (I suppose, you're mostly speaking of additional columns.) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 17:10, September 14, 2019 (UTC)

Finding Links to Headings
Hello - The THAC0 page contains a section called THAC0 Boosting Equipment. I added a couple of potions to that section and would like to make the header more generic but am afraid of breaking any links to it. How can I check to see if there are any such links?

GorionsWard (talk) 19:39, September 15, 2019 (UTC)

Hi! This isn't possible (without a bot and much time/work). Any link to sections that don't exist on an article anymore will link to the top of that page, however, so you're not disabling the link completely when modifying headings. I'm fine with such. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 20:44, September 15, 2019 (UTC)

Spoiler template
Hi there,

I was just wondering out loud when thinking about mentioning the encounter with him in BG2 in the article. It's not a problem to me but I thought just in the *off chance* that it is to someone else. But I just read that part again and realize it doesn't mention the outcome so, nevermind.

That being said, I think a spoiler template that hides content like those on Dragon Age wiki may be handy. Just in case you need one, you know. Ablake (talk) 23:10, September 18, 2019 (UTC)


 * I did take a look at the code of the templates over there, and I wondered whether the code would produce the same thing if I simply copypaste it here. Then I thought I'm still new here and there's plenty of other things I can do first. You know, take it easy, get used to the place first. --Ablake (talk) 23:48, September 18, 2019 (UTC)
 * It doesn't have to be as complicated as those on DAW. I just made a simple one and I think this should work well enough https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Template:Spoilers. --Ablake (talk) 09:15, September 19, 2019 (UTC)

Real time testing on templates
Sorry, bad habit. It won't happen again.

But how do I delete the template when I'm done? Or do I have to tag it with candidate for deletion or something? --Ablake (talk) 15:14, September 19, 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah I See, thanks. --Ablake (talk) 16:05, September 19, 2019 (UTC)

Dash
Gotcha, thanks. --Ablake (talk) 20:03, September 19, 2019 (UTC)

Aerie Infobox?
Aerie is using Creature IB when everyone else uses Companion IB. Is it ok if I change her IB to Companion? Thanks. --Ablake (talk) 10:01, September 20, 2019 (UTC)

Couple things
The dash. I found it - it's an en dash, and no the code for it is not Alt-150. In Word I can type it using Ctrl+-.

Look, when you see every companion using the same Companion template, that "this must be depreciated" tends not to be your first thought. I was only adding coordinates, not anything major. Even if I had noticed that it is depreciated, I wouldn't have done anything about it. Besides, you could have just told me when I was working on that too.

Now, I just made some minor changes to Aerie's page. If you would take a look at it, and tell me right away if there's anything you're not happy about, that would be great. I know there's a Coordinates field, but I think it's better to just include the area and coordinates in the Area field. Since companions have an initial and dismissed location, using the Coordinates field means you would have to repeat the whole "1. Initial, 2. Dismissed" part. --Ablake (talk) 13:05, September 20, 2019 (UTC)

+++++++++++++++

By "right away" I meant "before I make any changes to other companions", just so I won't propagate anything bad. I thought this was pretty clear. Apparently not.

"Without caring about how infoboxes are filled"? I don't know how you came to that conclusion. What was I doing to the infoboxes? I was simply adding coordinates. How? By *looking at various companion pages to see how it's done*. You think I came up with the whole " ([Areas|AR3600] – [Coordinates|3748.2392])" thing by myself? You think I would notice the EN DASH which is a fraction of a millimeter longer than a hyphen if I didn't "care about how infoboxes are filled"?

"while making dozen of changes" - exactly why I made only very minor changes of the same type. Or are you saying I can't make ANY edits while observing at the same time? I wanted to add coordinates to IB, and I looked at how coordinates are entered into IB. Simple as that. How long would it take you to do that? A month? Two months? If I did ANYTHING not right, you can simply let me know, and I will go back and FIX EVERY SINGLE EDIT THAT I'VE MADE. I don't need YOU or ANYONE to go after me and fix MY mistakes.

"So don't complain if somebody fixes some things or make changes behind you". When did I ever "complain"?? If you "fix some things or make changes" behind me... that is YOUR decision; there is no reason for ME to complain. It looks like YOU'RE the one complaining, even though, like I said, you can simply TELL ME what I did wrong and I'll fix it MYSELF.

Let me tell you. I'm not like most random players who would fumble about blindly when making edits. I DO observe how something is done before I do anything and I'm very careful when doing anything. This is not to say I NEVER make mistakes. However, saying I'm doing things WITHOUT caring about what I'm doing is simply false and I will NOT accept that. --Ablake (talk) 14:13, September 20, 2019 (UTC)

Let's just move on
I was a bit touchy at the beginning, which started all this, so it's partly on me too. Let's just move on. I'd rather not have things tense when I just got here.

Like I said though, if I'm making the same bad edit across multiple pages, just let me know and I'll fix them, instead of frustrating yourself. If it's something too specific though, you may really have to do it yourself. Like with the script pages that I added. I did look at other script pages, but couldn't find any that provided a similar situation (different scripts from different games) so I decided on a format that I thought reasonable.

Now let's get back to the more important issues, shall we? In the *editor* the Club WP shows as EXTRAPROF (for vanilla game), but *in the game* it is Club. Here's a screenshot https://i.imgur.com/i2D2EUZ.jpg. This is vanilla game without any mods and this is the level 9/11 Aerie right after you first meet her. The savvy players may know what EXTRAPROF is, but putting that in the IB makes no sense. The average player would have no idea what that is, unless we explain it with a note.

As for providing coordinates in IB, from my point of view, it's a matter of principle and consistency. We put the coordinates there *not* because we're afraid that players may get lost. We put them there for all companions so that it is *consistent* across pages. Besides, coordinates are still nice extra information for players who care about such details. To me, consistency is important, but this is just my opinion, of course. --Ablake (talk) 07:24, September 21, 2019 (UTC)


 * I didn't know BCS is your project. I got sidetracked when I saw the red linked BCS's, and thought it would be quite easy to copypaste those in. If you have determined a specific format or presentation style for the BCS pages, then that's how it will be done, of course.


 * Proficiency: EXTRAPROFICIENCY1 *is* Club. The devs probably forgot to name it properly in STATS.IDS in the original game. In EE they changed its label to PROFICIENCYCLUB to make it descriptive, but it's the same ID (115) in STATS.IDS. You can change this stat to EXTRABIGCLUB or whatever in the IDS file and it will still be "Club" when you play the game. It's just an internal label in the engine. EXTRAPROFICIENCY1 doesn't make any sense to anyone who has not played around with the editor before, and for those who have, EXTRAPROFICIENCY1 is Club.


 * Your example with Locations: please bear with me for a bit. My opinion: either is fine. However, we need to look at the big picture, or the "general" case, in this kind of situation. If it's something that appears in many places, and sometimes there is one instance and other times there are multiple instances, then it's better for it to be plural. If you use the singular because there is one instance, if there is any change to it - either by a patch/update, or maybe you miss other instances - you would have to change that heading accordingly, which is an unnecessary bother. Consider the item descriptions in the games, for example. When they list "Special Abilities" or "Equipped Abilities", it's always plural, even when the item has one ability. Because generally speaking, we don't know how many abilities each item has. Having to differentiate between "having one ability" and "having multiple abilities" is an unnecessary inconvenience.


 * Companion coordinates: I went to the starting location of each companion in the game(s) and check their coordinates. --Ablake (talk) 08:51, September 21, 2019 (UTC)

Companion Coordinates
It's possible. If you point your cursor at exactly the center of a character's feet circle, the coordinates of that point will be the actual coordinates used by the game (which are displayed in the editor). I tried to be precise when doing this, so I'm quite confident that the coordinates I entered only differ at most by 1-2 points in either the x or y axis from the actual coordinates. (most of them should be pinpoint precise though).

PS: Here's an example: https://i.imgur.com/zTQuiQo.jpg --Ablake (talk) 09:15, September 21, 2019 (UTC)

Just a bit more info on the Club WP
Btw, just in case you still have doubt: if you open up WEAPPROF.2DA, you will find Club on line 21, with ID 115, and name string ref 35445, which is "Club" - that's why it shows up correctly as Club ingame. It's because the file STATS.IDS labels this ID weirdly (EXTRAPROFICIENCY1), so it shows up that way in the *editor*. --Ablake (talk) 15:52, September 21, 2019 (UTC)

Re: Item infobox
- If I put all "other names" in links, they're gonna show up as red links. Should I create each of them and make it a redirect page? What about weird names, like "Shapeshifter Slayer"? I've never even seen or heard that name anywhere in the games, but left it untouched.

- IB doesn't need File prefix: yeah I know this from making edits on Borderlands wiki. I did remove it, then looked at other pages and saw that they all have it, so I changed it back.

- Underscores: by underscores you meant the SW1HXX part should not in code format and without the extension (e.g. ITM)? Or were you referring to something else?

I don't have a problem with your guidelines for formatting, but I used other weapon pages (Varscona, Ashideena, Surysis' Blade, etc.) as references when doing this. I must say, most pages on this wiki are nowhere close to what they *should* be based on your guidelines, aren't they? Not only are they inconsistent, but they're not even close to your standards. A lot of things you told me or changes that I noticed in your edits are not applied on most pages of the same type.

I know the "right" way of doing this is "read the templates", theoretically speaking, but I never expected that there would be so much discrepancy across pages. I've made quite a lot of edits on Borderlands wiki and they police the formatting very strictly, so in most cases all you need to do is look at similar pages and imitate. I did read a number of templates on here, but when I saw that most pages don't really conform to their templates, and just do things their own ways, I would get confused.

-- Added by Ablake (talk • contribs)


 * Well I don't see anything "egocentric" about establishing rules/guidelines for the purpose of making the wiki consistent and look nice. It's a wiki, after all. You're just doing your job, and it's good that you're meticulous about it. Talking and thinking much about it means you care about it, which is good too. I may not agree with every single one of your calls, but I respect what you're doing and the effort you've put into it. --Ablake (talk) 16:37, September 22, 2019 (UTC)

Caravan Merchant
Hey ComplexCCity - I happened to noticed that when you did clean-up recently on this article, you added "NE" to his alignments. Was that a copy/paste error or is he NE in some versions of the game?

GorionsWard (talk) 13:16, September 22, 2019 (UTC)
 * Read the lead. ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 13:28, September 22, 2019 (UTC)


 * By the way, you can use number and infinitely for stock numbers. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 13:30, September 22, 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I like the way that looks. I'll fix my others later. GorionsWard (talk) 14:58, September 22, 2019 (UTC)

Some Creature IB questions
Hi there, I tried to fill in the Sea Zombie page, and there were a couple things I'm not sure about.

- Race/Class: do I point the races and classes to the Category pages, or the actual pages, e.g. Category:Mages vs. Mage (the class)? Should I point the "No Race/Class" to the Category pages, but the valid races/classes like Mage/Zombie to the actual page instead (meaning Race:Zombie and Class:Zombie would point to the same page)? The Categories of the page itself cover all the Category pages anyway.

- Special/Immunities: ideally, I believe each status effect should point to its own page. However, there are too many status effects, and we don't have a dedicated page for every one of them, so I'm thinking an alternative here is to point all status effects to the page Status Effects. Either that, or no links at all, and we simply include a "See Also: Status Effects" subsection in the page. What do you think?

- Game version icons: I've been using the "Bg2ee soa article", but you used the "bg2ee soa infobox" on the Lacedon page. They have the same icon and the tooltips basically say the same thing. So are both of them ok?

Thanks, --Ablake (talk) 22:26, September 22, 2019 (UTC)

Template:Bug
Hi there,

I made a Bug template, as I thought it may come in handy when we want to mark something as bugged in the future. Atm I'm only using it on the Thief page in the "Pick Pockets" section, which I've expanded a bit recently). I was wondering if this is okay with you, and if it would be okay if I use it in the future? Thanks, --Ablake (talk) 21:57, September 23, 2019 (UTC)
 * That bug image is the fire beetle; I grabbed it from the Infinity Animation mod. It's from IWD or IWD2...? - I'm not sure.


 * Btw, the icon templates for BGSoAEE and BGToBEE... I think there's no need to have both of them, since BG2EE includes ToB. Both templates point to the same BG2EE page. IMO just the ToBEE icon is enough to represent BG2EE(SoA/ToB). The SoAEE icon is kinda... not as nice as the rest. --Ablake (talk) 15:06, September 24, 2019 (UTC)

Rigid Thinking
"Rigid Thinking" is just the name of the priest spell. The actual effect is just confusion. RING94 in BG2EE only disables the *string* "Rigid Thinking", it doesn't offer protection against the spell Rigid Thinking, while the real effect (Confusion) is already listed. Just thought I should point this out. --Ablake (talk) 15:06, September 24, 2019 (UTC)


 * I just thought the "immunity list" is supposed to list actual effects, and there isn't any effect called "Rigid Thinking". The actual effect is Confusion, which is already listed, so the Rigid Thinking entry is redundant. Listing "immunity to Rigid Thinking" would imply a spell protection against the spell Rigid Thinking, which is not *precisely* what's going on, even though the net result is the same (immunity to Confusion + disabling the "Rigid Thinking" string). But hey, it's up to you. --Ablake (talk) 16:36, September 24, 2019 (UTC)

Moving on (by GorionsWard)

 * Moved from User talk:GorionsWard

Hi CompleCCity - I finished my last play through of the game a couple of weeks ago and have since been lingering here on the wiki to see what I might be able to contribute. My most recent work (as I'm sure you know) has been on the Armor Class page, but I'm basically done with that. I'll check the wiki for the rest of the week to see if you need anything from me. Thanks for all your help!

GorionsWard (talk) 18:48, September 25, 2019 (UTC)

As you're starting a new topic by addressing me, this should have been in this place from the start. 🙂

Not completely done, as it appears to me … 😉

Thanks for all your great work!

Haven't given you feedback, yet, on how far I've come with the armor categories' implementation on the item infobox, sorry! If the IB's parameter  is set to e.g. "Leather armor", the article now will automatically link to that category and become part of it (see Template:Infobox item/doc/type for an overview of valid entries). The categories themselves still need some work, but first I wanted to finish the changes on the infobox (there's more to do).

And to be honest, fiddling with infoboxes and organizing categories, as well as adding to or fixing game-content articles, is very much more "my thing" than reviewing/rewriting all those game mechanics' pages. So, it may take me a while longer than only the rest of this week to get through your contributions and see where I think something should be changed (what I already noticed: I think, I will change a lot of the links to a] use redirects instead of the (category-) destination pages together with a piped alternative link display and b] also use proper (allowed) formatting of e.g. plural- or lower-case links (e.g. monks, instead of monks )). But content-wise … perhaps they remain as they are until the next person shows up who thinks the pages can be improved. (I'd keep them on the watchlist, but that's your decision – remember: you only get one notification about an edit until you visited the page again.)

The new text on your profile reminds me of my own playthroughs, especially the "wasted tons of time changing […] armor colors for everyone in the party" (in EE, I tend to revert to the original games' limited choice of colors). 😄

Perhaps we see you again in twenty years. (Though you're still welcome even earlier.) Until then, happy gaming (and perhaps wikiing). -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 08:05, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

Why I capitalized "Magical Rope"
From my point of view, when you use the full name of the item, it should be capitalized. Just like Rod of Lordly Might, Gauntlets of Crushing, etc. That rope is the only thing in the game called "Magical Rope"; it's a proper noun. But when you refer to the item with "the rope" or "the gauntlets", then it's lowercase.

PS: Same for a page title. Like "The Prophercy of Sekolah". It's the Title of a Page. So it should be captitalized, even if in the game it's not capitalized that way. If there is a reason why such capitalization is a bad idea, then I'm not aware of it. --Ablake (talk) 12:16, September 26, 2019 (UTC)


 * I admit, I've only ever made edits on BL and DA wikis, and their page titles are always capitalized (items, quests, abilities, etc.). In this particular case, "The prophecy of Sekolah", it's not just a *page title*, but it's the name of the quest in the games. So I treated it as a "quest title" - this is the actual reason why I capitalized it, but I neglected mentioning it, which certainly made my argument less convincing. Because when you mention a quest title in a sentence, it makes sense that you would capitalize it all the way to make it stand out, or you would have to italicize or boldface it or something similar.


 * Now let's say I create a page called "Find Brielbara's baby" (the quest in BG). That title is completely made up because in original BG there's no "quest titles". If it were up to me, I would capitalize "baby" as well because it's a "Page Title" and because I *made* it a quest title. If you tell me, "No that would be wrong according to the Manual of Style", I would not be able to argue against that.


 * Don't get me wrong though. I'm not trying to be pushy or a PITA with these arguments. Just thought it's cool to exchange opinions, understanding someone else's points of view.


 * PS: And btw, if you treat "Magical Rope" as a full common noun, but don't give it any article (a, an, the), now that is not right... As I pointed out, it's a *unique* item in the game with a unique name. The fact that you can acquire multiple copies of it is an oversight on the developers' part. It's not like an ogre or a wolf that can be found everywhere throughout the game. --Ablake (talk) 14:35, September 26, 2019 (UTC)


 * "quest names use all-uppercase words in-game as well" - Yes, and IMO that's the right way to handle quest names, or names of anything for that matter, when they are used as the title of a page. I've always relied on the "general" rules for capitalization of article titles, like those detailed here Capitalization rather than the wiki style.

Also, if you're using magical rope as a generic noun, the proper way to say it is either "a magical rope" or "magical ropes. Either plural or with an "a"". --Ablake (talk) 23:08, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

Categorizing Shields
Hi, CompleCCity!

I saw your edit on the Shield of the Lost and saw it was reclassified as a Category:Medium shields (the only entry in it). There's also a Category:Large shields, I plan to reclassify all shield under subcategories (large/medium/small/buckler) and put the subcategories under Category:Shields. Alternatively, I will have to take the Shield of the lost out of the Medium Shields category and put it back under "Shields". Please let me know which you think is better/makes it easier to navigate the Wiki before I get down to it. Majorman86 (talk)


 * You're one step ahead of me. ;) I just recently added the shields auto-categorization to the infobox item, but hadn't taken care of the categories until then. They're now all as they should be.


 * When you're "reclassifying", do it as follows:
 * Set the infobox parameter  to "Buckler", "Small …", "Medium …" or "Large shield" (without brackets); add the parameter if not already present
 * Remove the parameter
 * Remove any manually set shields category
 * In case, the shield is of different classes throughout the games, auto-linking and -categorizing don't work, and this has to be done manually
 * Refer to the infobox documentation if you need further assistance in this – or simply ask me. :) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:59, October 10, 2019 (UTC)

Support
Hi CompleCCity,

I am super impressed about your contributions. Did you start this forum? I am soooooo passionate about BG but was never too advanced to become a pro in BG and my perfectionism made restart often... I am writing you to know what is the best way to make this forum the best information source of BG possible. I just discovered near infinity which gives me access to some information but not all. Would it be ok if I write you if I have questions? Aaaand ich habe gerade gemerkt ich hätte die ganze Zeit auf Deutsch mit dir schreiben können.... LOL. Naja frohes schaffen und alles gute zum Geburtstag nachträglich.

Viele Grüße

Mortain -- Added by Mortain87 (talk • contribs)


 * Hi, Mortain!
 * Thanks.
 * Thomaslove92 is the founder of the.


 * Let me explain some basics to you before really replying:
 * We should talk English because this is an English site, and our talk pages are public space – any visitor can read what we're talking about or even take part in the discussion. It is common for wikis to do it this way.
 * And – it's a wiki, not a "forum", and should be seen as an encyclopedia. ;)
 * Also, I added a signature replacement, along with a header, to your comment here, which is not only common on talk pages but wanted (look at the note at the top of the page).


 * Of course you're welcome to ask any question you like. If it's about the games, wikiing itself, Near Infinity and similar, I will try to give you the best possible answers. (This extends to character/walkthrough/gameplay ideas.)
 * You might also find the help contents useful or their index.


 * Where to start? Well, take a random page and see what information is perhaps missing. Rewrite the lead and give the article some structure – many pages put all their information into the starting paragraph, which is not good style. You can update infoboxes on many articles, especially items: the templates have received massive updates, but articles often use outdated code. Or simply play the game, visit related articles here and see what you can add from your experience.


 * If you're becoming a more frequent contributor, it might happen that I make changes to your edits; in such cases I always try to explain what I've done and why inside the edit summary. If that's not clear enough for you or you have additional questions, then you can of course ask me as well.


 * Feel welcome, and happy editing but also gaming! :) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 19:22, October 18, 2019 (UTC)


 * P.S. I'm coming back to your question below later.

Image cropping
Here is already my first question. If I take the images from BG with near infinity and edit them with paint to get rid of the bottom part, am I infringing on Copyrights? Because I saw a few of high resolution images here thinking that is how it is done. Can you advice me? Thank you already in advance -- Added by Mortain87 (talk • contribs)


 * You're talking about the *.tis files extracted to *.png … I'm no copyright expert (neither on legal matters in general), but I'd say that's okay.
 * I have some requests, though:
 * Please check before any upload if a file of this already exists; feel free to "upload a new version" then if yours is of better quality. (You will have issues with exterior maps, due to the filesize.)
 * Please, be more accurate with cropping; for example, your File:AR1804.PNG has the resolution  – when it actually should have , so you've cropped too much. ;)
 * Also, please don't use image information – write down your plain text into the summary field during upload. I prefer a line like "Original file: AR1804.tis", followed by "Source: game files (BG1EE) " (or any game/edition it is from). If you're adding the tool (which I wouldn't in these cases), please use a Wikipedia link (e.g. wikipedia:Microsoft Paint:Microsoft Paint ), respectively our internal Near Infinity . It's also important to use the correct copyright tag – which would be fairuse.


 * I'll be off for today … 'til then -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 20:24, October 18, 2019 (UTC)

A Discord finally? ;)
Just logged into here today to see that you've made yourself a Discord account. Tried contacting you directly there, but my messages are getting blocked by some kind of bot. :( (You wouldn't happen to know Clyde the Bot, would you?)

Well, guess I'm a week late (not being online for quite a long time), but anyways, wish you a belated Happy Birthday!

Life's become pretty busy now with my college starting up (I'm into the 2nd year of my MBBS course now), so now I have to get up at 6 in the morning (in order to get out at 7) and only come back home around 4 to 5 pm.

Do you play strategy games, by the way? Been playing a lot of those recently (though I've less time now). Paradox strategies are some of the best.

Rik Kirtaniya (talk) 04:03, October 20, 2019 (UTC)

My Secret Allegiance With Majorman86
... is largely just coincidental. I've heard from only a few other Wiki members, and I don't think he's one of them. I just wanted a cheeky way to describe my update, hence that phrasing.

As for |your work on the infoboxes:


 * The "from" section might get messy, as more common items can be purchased and found from various enemies.
 * Thank you for making "two-handed" a Y/N field! I was going to request that it be a number, but this makes more sense. The only hiccup I can see here is that some items don't take any hands (headgear) while others take one (a short-sword); both would be "no," but only one requires hands.
 * I am curious to read the "how to fill in this infobox" for these updates, though!
 * Could it be possible to add in something so the items with more than one image (Bucklers, for a recent example) can show more than one image? Or is it simpler to do that with a gallery, I think it is?

CalOkand (talk) 20:00, October 20, 2019 (UTC)

Creature stats and codes
Hi CompleCCity

I noticed you reverted a few of my changes. I just checked the greater Wyvern again by creating the creatures in Throne of Bhaal and the base THAC0 is 5 but with the strength modification becomes 4 for both: WYVGRE01 and ohbmena8. The same goes with AC both being at -2. While WYVERNBI and bdwyvr03 do not exist in TOB, they do in BG1 and WYVERNBI has a THAC0 of -1 because of a strength of 25 while the AC is -5. bdwyvr03 is a special one with poison immunity and other ability scores with THAC0 = 6 and AC -4. So I don't get why you revert the THAC0 to 5 since only 2 of the 4 creature only have a base and not real THAC0 of 5 but deleted the AC because it varies. So do the THAC0s. It is quite demotivating to see work not being accepted or reverted especially if it seems that I was right. Could you please enlight me what I did wrong or how you get your information? Thank you in advance.

Sincerely,

Mortain

--Mortain87 (talk) 20:39, October 20, 2019 (UTC)


 * Yeah, sorry, was perhaps a bit quick and not well researched. My thoughts were, "there is more than one code" (real appearances not checked) and "values vary" (again, not checked which of them make a real appearance in-game). So, I reverted that edit with the 'reasoning', "as long as the details for every instance aren't distinguished, restore the previous version". I'm currently working on overhauling the Vampiric Wolf that you edited afterwards. Here, it's no revert, but an expansion (with some fixes in formatting), but I don't think, I'm getting it finished today. At least, you'll then have an example of what I'm talking about. Perhaps.


 * As for the values: for now, the infoboxes don't show adjusted stats like calculating dexterity or constitution, only the pure creature file values as seen in Near Infinity. If you want to point out such things, you can note it down in a "Gameplay" section. If the same creature has very different values throughout games, editions or simply because there are several files, it is possible to use only those fields in the main infobox that are common for all (or most) and place the Template:Infobox creature redux for the various games (currently doesn't work for differences within one game). There's also the option to create another article, which will happen with the Vampiric Wolf – the SoD variant gets its own page. You'll see tomorrow when I'm done with it.


 * Again, sorry! Didn't want to demotivate you. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 21:14, October 20, 2019 (UTC)


 * Vampiric Wolf and Vampiric Wolf (Siege of Dragonspear) finished.
 * Also: I've reverted my revert. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 09:56, October 21, 2019 (UTC)


 * Okay, now that I've updated the Greater Wyvern (and have done a lot of research), I can justify my revert, nevertheless: You added specifically the code for the Tales of the Sword Coast creature, and then set its AC to "-2" – when it has -5. You also changed the THAC0 from 5 to 4, when this specific creature has 6. Though only two of the variants do have the former THAC0 of 5, that one wasn't completely incorrect as no code for a specific creature was provided, while none of the variants has 4.
 * So – besides now knowing about non-derivated stats in infoboxes–, please try to be more consistent in the future, and when you add a value for a certain creature, don't use stats of other ones in other fields – or provide the complete picture instead. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 13:31, October 21, 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you for replying and for your work in general. Don't you think to avoid too many pages for the same creature with all the different variations that it would make more sense to have several section and creature infoboxes on the same page and list the different properties maybe highlightened in bold or similarly? --Mortain87 (talk) 13:42, October 21, 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes … no … uhm … okay …


 * Thoughts and some basics:
 * It is common for wikis to have some sort of auto-categorization system implemented which in many cases is done via infoboxes – as we do here.
 * To make things easier for bots, it is good to have identical and complete infoboxes all over the place. Also, my philosophy on empty fields in infoboxes is to not leave them empty, but to provide a (hidden) comment that it was left "empty" intentionally.
 * Both things together may lead to large – in terms of page layout, taking much vertical space to the right – infoboxes. One idea to make auto-categorization less complicated and to also reduce that space was the introduction of "redux" infoboxes.


 * Okay, wait, forget that for now. Might I have understood your intention wrong?
 * Are you speaking of the extra article for the Vampiric Wolf (Siege of Dragonspear)? And why it's not simply included on the main article?
 * Or are you talking about the Greater Wyvern? In this case, could you please explain your question a bit more detailed? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 14:06, October 21, 2019 (UTC)


 * What exactly are redux infoboxes and has nobody somehow automatize this process so far? I mean I am sure there would be an easier way to extract the data from Near Infinity automatically instead of putting everything manually or am I being naive?


 * And yes I am talking about both actually. The variations of both differ enough that they could have their own page but here lies the question: isn't it better to put the different variations in one page with the different options I mention before? Mortain87 (talk) 19:28, October 22, 2019 (UTC)


 * Really in use, as of now, is only the Template:Infobox creature redux. Differences to the base infobox are described on its documentation; besides those, it's the same code. You can see how I intended it to be filled on the Greater Wyvern article. You would list common stats for a creature throughout games/editions in the top base infobox, and place additional redux ones with only the differing stats below. In their current state, it's not really possible to distinguish between different instances within one game in the same way – that's where a disambiguated article can be created. For the Vampiric Wolf, I decided to do so because the parent article is nice, short and clean – without being blown up by a second infobox. The differences between the variants affect the gameplay section as well but are present in only one game, so it's different enough to warrant its own article, I think, while the main one covers all other games.


 * If you find an easier way of importing NI data right into wiki code than by hand, please tell me. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 19:46, October 22, 2019 (UTC)


 * Already explained but now with a detailed example for why using an extra page, rather than infoboxes redux: if the Gnoll Slasher (Siege of Dragonspear) would have to be placed on the base article with a short infobox, then theoretically each game's slasher would need such an infobox, adding a further four of them, for a total of six infoboxes – the way it's handled now, those two articles look much better than they would with the alternative option. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 17:23, October 23, 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes I do see why it makes sense! Too many info boxes would definitely be counterproductive. This way it is cleanly separated and people can find it in the category page.


 * Regarding an easier way of importing NI data right into wiki code... I know it's not really easy but I am thinking of extending NI to be able to do so. I should actually concentrate on writing my thesis but... this is so much more fun. I don't know how easy it would be and I would have to know what exact information you would need but I was thinking of exporting the info boxes for creatures and items automatically in a wiki friendly text manner. I really have no idea how much time it would take me to understand the code and figure something out to make it work the way I want it but I thought this wiki could benefit from it. Would this be helpful? Let me know what you think about this. --Mortain87 (talk) 21:10, October 23, 2019 (UTC)


 * First: real life (your thesis) should always come first, even if "this is so much more fun". I don't think I have to tell this somebody who started to play Baldur's Gate in 1999, but I can tell by experience. ;)


 * Second: I don't really have an idea of what you're planning to achieve. Some (tabbed) text file export or spreadsheet? Then I still can't imagine how these could more or less automatically be imported into infoboxes … (And replying to "would this be helpful" from a personal point of view: probably, I'd still prefer the handiwork ;)
 * Some resources:
 * I've read a discussion somewhere from Faalagorn, a former admin here, who exported at least lists of filetypes from Near Infinity, creating/filling e.g. creatures and items with it. Though I don't know when Faalagorn will respond if you're contacting them.
 * argent77 over on the Beamdog forums is maintaining NI.
 * A related thread.
 * Download at GitHub.
 * A NearInfinity wiki.
 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 08:01, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

Uhmm....?
I guess it's the fact that you are busy that made you miss this message of mine from two days back? (I wouldn't want to think otherwise.) Well, I hope you are doing fine...

Rik Kirtaniya (talk) 16:59, October 21, 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi, Rik! And thanks!


 * Yes, busy … very busy (though indeed here on the wiki). Wanted to have the time to reply adequately to a friend, not just in passing between other things I had to wanted to take care of. (And believe me, I didn't miss it. ;)


 * Am I doing fine? I'm doing fine wiki work (I think), but else – I could do finer. But explaining that would lead too far, now …


 * No, I don't know any Clyde. Discord has replaced the Gampepedia Slack, that's why I do have an account. Also because it has become a common discussion platform for Fandom wikis. I haven't changed any settings and wasn't aware that messages from people not on that server would be blocked. (Haven't found an according setting, neither, yet.)


 * Yes, the oh so stressing life of a college student – I do remember. ;) What's "MBBS"?


 * We'll continue on Discord … -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 08:02, October 22, 2019 (UTC)

Re: A day and a half (not really)

 * Moved to User talk:Immentale, as intended

BP2 walkthrough
Hi CompleCCity,

I am trying something out but I don't really know if it is to overblown and even wanted. So before I continue, since it is a lot of work, I wanted to ask you what you think about this walkthrough of Black Pits 2 that I started. Mortain87 (talk) 20:17, October 25, 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi, Mortain.


 * Hm… okay, my thoughts, my opinions – regard them or don't. :)
 * The article needs a walkthrough, though a generic one, meaning: not written with specific conditions in mind, such as focused on a certain class. This, however, should be done on a subpage, for example, so that the already very long page isn't blown up further; this could be The Black Pits II: Gladiators of Thay#Walkthrough.
 * I've once tried to start something like that for The Black Pits; my draft can be found here.
 * I'm no friend of a section "Gameplay (community)" in general. I'm considering to either integrate such content into standard "Gameplay" or "Strategy" sections (though it has to be generalized then, rewritten to be more objective) or move it to subpages of the articles.
 * Gejadus's walkthrough already contains a sorcerer section.
 * As Gejadus, you could consider to make your own walkthrough a personal blog, instead of adding it to the page itself in detail. (If it becomes very long, you should consider this. ;) A blog has the advantage that nobody, except users with special rights, can change the content – it's yours exclusively (almost).


 * So, nothing speaks against you writing something like this. For the "wanted" question: "wanted" in terms of "needed" for the wiki would be the non-focused walkthrough. "Accepted", perhaps with the above mentioned restrictions (namespace, location), it would be.
 * Perhaps you are able to write both in one go. ;)


 * Was this helpful? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:28, October 26, 2019 (UTC)


 * Ok thank you so much for your input. I can't imagine a generic walkthrough for black pits. It sounds impossible for a battle based game. The goal is to kill all the monsters so a walkthrough should be about how to kill them which is usually dependent on what class you are or not? Do you have an example? Your black pits doesn't have any neutral walkthrough for the battles itself. I mean I already listed all the monsters there are and I could add their abilities and ST and other attributes and items but I wouldn't call that a walkthrough. I am planning to add all the quests I find. So I will probably stop or move it to a blog like you said. Thank you again. --Mortain87 (talk) 20:26, October 26, 2019 (UTC)


 * You could describe strengths and weaknesses of the opponents and their behavior. You could make it a "walk (read: read) through", rather than a table. You could add the things that happen outside the battles. You could include the rewards and point out important items for sale on the different stages.
 * Your specific combat strategy against each group of enemies certainly has to rely on your class, then.


 * That's what I meant with "both in one go" – write a general paragraph about each battle that's included in both, then a second one with your personal strategy only in your blog/community section. You could even try to summarize that and add some basics for wizards to the general walkthrough.
 * What about a start, so that I can see your concept? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 09:01, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

A page for timed events or missable things
I've been thinking it could be helpful to have a page listing all timed quests and events along with any other relevant details. (Example: saving Dynaheir for Minsc within 10 days.) I also thought it could be useful to list easily missed things...I know a number of things could be considered missable by simply responding wrong to a quest giver or killing the wrong person, but I'd like to note specific ones that have a higher-than-average chance of being missed by most players. (Example: beginning the Sea Charts quest for Mendas eliminates Jacil from the game and the only source of a Spear +2.)

What do you think about having specific pages for listing these things? Would it be alright to put them both on the same page, sort of as a one-stop area for completionist players who want to know what to do so they don't miss anything?

I like the idea of a Category: Timed Quests too, but I think a page with specific info on all of them would be more useful.

Unclesporky (talk) 01:05, November 4, 2019 (UTC)


 * Sounds good!
 * I have no idea, however, how such a page could be named. ;)


 * For a start, I could enable auto-categorization for the field "missable" in the infoboxes for areas, creatures, items and quests. This means that every article from those categories would be added to a new category if the field has an entry, no matter what. However – how to name such a category (again)? I don't really like the term "missable" – my standard online dictionary, for example, doesn't list it, and though it exists in the Wiktionary, this could mean that it's an unusual term. Something like "Areas that can/may be missed" came into mind, but that's a long category name …


 * There's also the field "quest_timer" for quests, which could get better use – if filled, it may auto-categorize a quest into … yeah, and then again: how to name it? "Quests with a time limit"?


 * Anyway, such categories could serve as a first overview or collection of according content. (Categories are lists of articles that have something in common – they shouldn't serve as a replacement for overview pages.)


 * Any ideas for names?
 * And about putting all together or make it separate articles: I think, quests with a time limit should get their own page, but be linked to from the other one.


 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 12:20, November 4, 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm not sure what to call it either. "Missable" is a fairly common term specifically in video gaming, for almost any game you can search for example "Mass Effect, anything missable?" and find results, but I also know it's not necessarily a "scholarly" term, or whatever you would call it in terms of a wiki.
 * Another small wrinkle when it comes to timed quests is the difference between a quest with a hard coded limit like 10 hours, and a quest where there is some sort of timed element but may not be expressed in exact terms. Examples include Xvart Raids where you walk up to an active combat situation and must save Hulrik's cow before she dies, or Narlen's Heist where taking too long upstairs in Gantolandan's House will cause him to wake up and catch you.
 * Unclesporky (talk) 13:09, November 4, 2019 (UTC)
 * Unclesporky (talk) 13:09, November 4, 2019 (UTC)


 * Such a common term as "NPC" for non-hostile non-player characters? I don't really appreciate abbreviations, but only recently had to learn that this one might be allowed. So, okay, what about missable content then?


 * We could rename the "Quest Timers" field to be more generic. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:05, November 4, 2019 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the overhaul on Laola Axehand's page. When I made it I simply copied another minor NPC wholesale and edited everything that was different (specifically Nikolai). Should the need come up again I will refer to your work there as a template for others (things like coordinates, script references, a line of dialogue etc.). Tough to know a good starting point for a page when so much of the wiki is a hodgepodge already. Unclesporky (talk) 15:17, November 4, 2019 (UTC)


 * You're welcome again. It's always better to use the copy-paste code from the infobox pages themselves, as that one usually is up-to-date, while articles may contain outdated versions.


 * How I've implemented the area thing is based on a thread about items; it uses found in (others for similar purposes are bought from, hold by and reward for).


 * Do you know a better place for a greeting or similar than at the top of a character page? ;)


 * Different people have different opinions on the need or not for references in a wiki like this one. It's somehow my thing, and wasn't done before. For example, I set a reference with the complete dialog line if I've omitted or changed something from it inside the quote, while only giving the name of the file and the Near Infinity parameters in other cases; makes it easier to comprehend (and perhaps verify) the information when sourced. I place script references because it's not always obvious where the information is from; for Laola Axehand, e.g., one doesn't find her character when looking into the area file. Such things …
 * Perhaps a good example is Hack, whom I've unstubbed yesterday.
 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:58, November 4, 2019 (UTC)

Chaos of Battle innate ability
Sorry to bother you, would you mind looking over the Chaos of Battle page I just created and help with the spell infobox, make sure I got it right? I left a lot of fields blank because I wasn't sure how to use them. Please unstub if appropriate. Unclesporky (talk) 19:52, November 11, 2019 (UTC)


 * Unstubbed. Replaced infobox spell with infobox ability. Left parameters without info empty, placed where no info belongs. Fixed some minor things – not technically, but formatting and how (I suppose) the infobox is intended to be filled. I'm not very experienced with all that projectile stuff; see this thread for some information about it. If you want to expand on that, perhaps spells edited by Mitchfork are a good source of information and mechanics. I haven't checked the effects further down.
 * Okay? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 21:12, November 11, 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you! See, I thought I was probably doing something wrong...didn't know an ability infobox existed separate from the spell infobox. Weird that the spell infobox contains some lines referring to an ability as well. Unclesporky (talk) 23:13, November 11, 2019 (UTC)


 * You're welcome! (Also before.)
 * You're referring to the icons? The spell icon is the one in the Mage Book/Priest Scroll, the ability icon is the one from the quick spell/abilities bar.
 * Technically, spells and abilities are the same. I guess, in that thread it was also considered to merge both, as I've started to do with IB creatures and IB companions. Well, another day – currently I'm working on stores, then two-handed swords, then back to Sarevok and other creatures and their categorization … -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 23:33, November 11, 2019 (UTC)

fi_game
I noticed that in the infobox, fi_game 1 makes the area link refer to Baldur's Gate and fi_game 2 makes it refer to Baldur's Gate 2 (on hover). Can you make fi_game 3 refer to Siege of Dragonspear? Or does this entire system need to be reworked? For example, should 3 refer to BG2 ToB? Should there also be IDs for Black Pits 1 and 2? Right now I tested 3 and 4 and they just change the hover to generic "Areas." Unclesporky (talk) 22:46, November 13, 2019 (UTC)


 * No … that's only to have the area code link to the right area article, Areas (Baldur's Gate) or Areas (Baldur's Gate II) – these won't get further split; perhaps, the split even gets reverted, making that parameter "bf/fi/hb/rf_game" deprecated. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 07:43, November 14, 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, and yes, "REVEANT" is a typo in CLASS.ids and should be "Revenant" (not the only one). -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 07:45, November 14, 2019 (UTC)

Merging
Hey CompleCCity is there a way you could teach how to merge two pages together? Or how to delete one? For example this: Dragonscale Shield and Dragonshield. Thank you in advance --Mortain87 (talk) 14:59, November 19, 2019 (UTC)


 * I ventured to change your header to not be all-caps anymore. ;)
 * A technical, real merge of two pages seems not to be possible on Fandom wikis. (And wouldn't be the right thing in this case, neither.) Only thing you can do is to copy missing/additional info from the redundant page to the one that shall stay; then add reason at the top of the redundant page, in this case the one with the wrong name, Dragonshield. Deletion of content can only be done by admins and such. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:20, November 19, 2019 (UTC)

Achievements
Hi ClompleCCity,

I have yet another idea, question / favor to ask: could you as an admin create a new category? In this case I was thinking an achievement image category for images such as the one found in Ability. I don't know if it is actually against rules since it's for steam achievements, but it would be nice to include the various possible achievement and have them all collected in one category page for example achievements or steam achievements. --Mortain87 (talk) 20:40, November 21, 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't know what you are knowing already, but here are some links:
 * Steam Achievements
 * Hidden Achievements
 * Steam Community :: Guide :: Baldur's Gate: EE - Achievement Guide. Excl Siege of Dragonspear
 * Steam Community :: Guide :: Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition - Achievements Guide
 * Steam Community :: Guide :: Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition Achievements Guide
 * And there's a 2da-file "achievem".


 * Are achievements Steam-exclusive? If not, we should move that page to "Achievements" only …


 * For the category: simply add "Achievement icons" (they're icons, not images, don't you think?) to a file or place on it while editing, then click the link to the category and press "Create". Put it into the category:Images – et voilà, you've created a category. (You could also do this like creating any page, only with "Category:" before the title.) New categories work as expected only a day later, you won't find it earlier in the proposals when trying to add it. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 21:40, November 21, 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you for all the links and for the how-to for creating a new category. I knew that some started it but as you can see only a few of the icons (which I agree they are icons) were uploaded and if all of those icons had a tag such as Achievement icons then it would be listed nicely like category:Images.


 * To be honest I don't know if these achievement are also for other platforms than just Steam. --Mortain87 (talk) 06:55, November 22, 2019 (UTC)


 * What do you think, shall we add achievement types? Like "Companions", "Quest", "Storyline", etc. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 20:57, November 27, 2019 (UTC)


 * We could but where is your awesome achievement table with the hiding options? I think that would be waaay higher on the todo list then achievement types even though I really like organizing and the idea is great! I saw you combined the two achievement pages as well. --Mortain87 (talk) 22:34, November 27, 2019 (UTC)


 * Working on it – that's why I asked.


 * Do you remember the exact message in-game or in-Steam when gaining an achievement? Is there something like "Achievement gained" or similar? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 08:40, November 28, 2019 (UTC)


 * No but I will go and check. One moment please. --Mortain87 (talk) 10:03, November 28, 2019 (UTC)


 * Ok I checked and took a picture for you. On the bottom right pops up a little statement: Achievement Unlocked! (yes with capital U) and below that the name of the achievement: https://imgur.com/RYhzpXg


 * You are a very evil person!




 * Thanks! -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:51, November 28, 2019 (UTC)

Silver Ioun Stone description
I don't know how to tag someone or I would've just tagged you there...please look at the comments in Silver Ioun Stone, maybe you can help? That could explain the older comment that didn't fix the issue either. Unclesporky (talk) 22:14, November 25, 2019 (UTC)


 * You mean what I – as a German – would call "ping"? There's no such thing on Fandom. But I usually have an eye on the comments. Thanks, though. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 00:05, November 26, 2019 (UTC)


 * We say that in the US too, but as far as I know there are several ways to describe referencing a user in a way that sends them a notification or alert. It can vary by platform.  On Twitter and Discord a lot of people just say @, and if they don't want to get a reply or notification they say "don't @ me bro." :)  Unclesporky (talk) 01:59, November 26, 2019 (UTC)

Borinole Mann
I realize this is a really minor thing, but I believe it is standard when explaining a pun or play-on-words to spell out the correct/intended understanding of the word or phrase properly. Perhaps this is an english vs. german difference.

One example of this on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen

If there was a character in this game named Lady Mondegreen, I wouldn't write out the trivia as "laid 'eem on da green," but the proper "laid him on the green." -- Added by Unclesporky (talk • contribs)


 * Okay then, now it has both options. But you're free to undo my edits. (And that's no language thing ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 11:25, November 30, 2019 (UTC)

Thieving Abilities
I was changing links from Thieving Abilities to Thief because the Thieving Abilities page doesn't have subheadings for every thieving ability. The only one it has is Pick Pockets, and its discussion of the subject is less exhaustive than the one on the Thief page. In fact Thieving Abilities seems like it's been set up as more a general gameplay information/errata/detail page than one that outlines all of the thieving abilities as it should.

You can even see on the Thieving Abilities page itself that every link to things like Open Lock or Move Silently all redirect to the Thief page. On the Thieving Abilities page near the top it says "bard's pickpocketing," and the link to Pick Pockets redirects right back to the Thief page. Thieving Abilities itself doesn't seem to feel confident that it is the best place for information. :)

I agree that the abilities from Thief should be integrated/merged into Thieving Abilities, with a link at Thief (and other kits/variants) that says "see Thieving Abilities," but until that happens the Thief page is the best place for info on these abilities, which is why I was linking there. Unclesporky (talk) 16:21, November 30, 2019 (UTC)


 * Okay, perhaps I was inconsistent myself here, as well.


 * Actually, each skill needs its own article, as was done with stealth. I once created many redirects for these, and maybe wasn't aware of the page "thieving abilities" at that point of time or … don't know anymore. Still, I think the abilities are the better place to look: if you're playing a bard or a monk – why being redirected to thief? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:37, November 30, 2019 (UTC)


 * Like I said I do agree, but until all these pages are set up as they should be, I would rather link to the best sources of info on the wiki, including an introduction to the subject, as the Thief page does for Pick Pockets. Thieving Abilities launches into a discussion of changes made to the skill in EE rather than even telling people what the skill does and is incredibly brief. Should the redirects to Thief all be broken into red links for now, to encourage people to make those pages? Unclesporky (talk) 16:44, November 30, 2019 (UTC)


 * Well, here's a list. See, where it currently links. I will not delete them again, just to create red links. As of my experience, they're not that much a motivation (except for your rest, perhaps ;). Would anything speak against copying the text you're mentioning over to the abilities page? And perhaps the other sections, as well?
 * Detect Illusion
 * Detect illusion
 * Detect Illusion (skill)
 * Find Traps
 * Find traps
 * Find Traps (skill)
 * Hide In Shadows
 * Hide in Shadows
 * Hide in shadows
 * Move Silently
 * Move silently
 * Open Locks
 * Open locks
 * Pick Pockets
 * Pick pockets
 * Pickpocket
 * Set Traps
 * Set traps
 * If all article links would use these redirects, rather than some destination page, it would be easier.
 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 17:16, November 30, 2019 (UTC)


 * Would anything speak against copying the text you're mentioning over to the abilities page? And perhaps the other sections, as well?
 * No, nothing against it. Honestly it should be very easy to copy the sections from the Thief page to individual pages, though it would take careful re-reading, some rewriting, and re-linking things that now need linking because they're the first time mentioned on the fresh new page.
 * I was just telling you my reasoning for linking to the Thief page for now, that is all. Like I said, I agree it should be better!  Pick Pockets should have its own page.  Maybe there should not even be a Thieving Abilities page, or it could be sort of a disambiguation linking to each of the abilities. Unclesporky (talk) 05:10, December 1, 2019 (UTC)
 * I was just telling you my reasoning for linking to the Thief page for now, that is all. Like I said, I agree it should be better!  Pick Pockets should have its own page.  Maybe there should not even be a Thieving Abilities page, or it could be sort of a disambiguation linking to each of the abilities. Unclesporky (talk) 05:10, December 1, 2019 (UTC)
 * I was just telling you my reasoning for linking to the Thief page for now, that is all. Like I said, I agree it should be better!  Pick Pockets should have its own page.  Maybe there should not even be a Thieving Abilities page, or it could be sort of a disambiguation linking to each of the abilities. Unclesporky (talk) 05:10, December 1, 2019 (UTC)

Namespaces
Have you thought about what you're going to do when Baldur's Gate 3 comes out? I know there are a lot of things in progress here already but some prep work should probably be done so that anyone coming here to add articles about that game will know how to do it.

I've indicated before that I really like the way the Elder Scrolls wiki UESP does things, and that's also a longstanding historic game series with multiple entries spanning gaming generations. Have you ever considered something like this? Unclesporky (talk) 13:16, December 3, 2019 (UTC)


 * I haven't thought about it, yet. Honestly, how the UESP organizes its content sometimes irritates me when searching for something or in the rare cases I do editing over there …
 * Also, TES is a really large series of games, while we here only have to deal with two very different games in the future. Or did you want to expand this and seprate between BG1 and BG2, as well? Perhaps even separating the Enhanced Editions? In some cases, that would be good, but in the majority I don't think it's necessary and just would create many, many articles.


 * BG3 content … when will the first articles be written? In the near future, Fandom and Gamepedia will get a new, unified platform (with an up-to-date MW version). Perhaps that predates BG3, and we could see which options we would have then.


 * I've thought about a different solution since a long time, and not dedicated to BG3: tabbed infoboxes, as the Forgotten Realms Wiki is doing it for differences between D&D editions. Downside: tabbers don't work mobile, yet. (Perhaps on that unified platform.)


 * So, there are three options for the future of a Long Sword:
 * Long Sword – with tabbed infoboxes
 * Baldur's Gate:Long Sword
 * Long Sword (Baldur's Gate III)


 * Useful links: Help:Namespace and Help:Custom namespaces


 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:48, December 3, 2019 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I suppose we will see if it becomes necessary. The situation is a little different from Elder Scrolls because each of their games has been vastly different, tweaked mechanics and stats for every object, so they need Steel Sword (Morrowind) and Steel Sword (Oblivion) and Steel Sword (Skyrim). Here the Long Sword is mostly consistent across every game because they are all essentially the same engine and using the same AD&D rules.
 * When BG3 comes out though, you will probably need Long Sword (classic BG) and Long Sword (BG3) or something along those lines. It would be confusing to list that info inline with old BG for the sake of people who want BG3 info, and if you do infobox tabs, it will still default to one particular view every single time, which again isn't helpful for people who want only info on BG3.  They won't want to have to click over every time.  So there will need to be disambiguation versions of everything.
 * I highly expect BG3 to work off of a modified 5th edition ruleset and to share very little in common with the old games, but many of the monsters and spells still have identical names, so you do run into the problems they had at UESP about the way the Flames spell works in one game vs. the next. In this case it will be Cure Light Wounds and Melf's Acid Arrow.
 * I appreciate the shorter namespaces used at UESP, like just Shivering: instead of The Elder Scrolls IV Shivering Isles. If this wiki were to move to a similar system, it would be nice to have the abbreviated simplicity of BG:Cure Light Wounds and BG3:Cure Light Wounds.  Long disambiguation like Cinematics (Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear) could become SOD:Cinematics, maybe.
 * It's tough though with how much overlap there is already. The way that infoboxes keep track of what content is in each game via icons.  Maybe there should only be two namespaces, BGC for Baldur's Gate Classic which would be everything on this wiki as it exists now, and BG3 for everything Baldur's Gate 3.  Not sure what is best. Unclesporky (talk) 19:56, December 3, 2019 (UTC)


 * It really depends on how different BG3 will be and what game engine they will use. I agree that people looking for BG3 information will not want to have to go with the extra effort and click on the BG3 every single time while in the wiki with the different D&D versions makes sense. --Mortain87 (talk) 20:35, December 3, 2019 (UTC)

Category lists
Hi CompleCCity, me again. I saw this list and got all twichy and itchy. How many different icons can you have? I noticed that there might be a problem of how the automatic listing works. Could it be that it does not display images that have a lower resolution than 50px? I am asking because NearInfinity gives icons of 32x32 px and those that are uploaded do not show up, but the ones users took as screenshot of around 50px will be shown. Where can I change that or how would you recommend to solve this problem?--Mortain87 (talk) 13:19, December 8, 2019 (UTC)


 * See User:CompleCCity, I guess. If I get your meaning right.
 * This means, as I've already started with a handful of spell icons, they also should be resized to 201×151 – which, however, looks a bit odd in the infobox. I was unsure if I like that, so I stopped continuing for now.
 * If you plan to make this a project of yours, please first synchronize with me about the specifics. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 13:33, December 8, 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but I don't think it is a good idea to scale the images to that size. They are unfortunately very small, but for the purpose of showing them next to each item in this list they are totally fine in size. I would really like to avoid extra work and try to fix the list in such a way that it accepts also 32x32. Do you know how this could be done?--Mortain87 (talk) 19:10, December 8, 2019 (UTC)


 * The display of this "list" is defined by the software and can't be changed to custom resolutions. Also, there's three ways how it can be shown to any visitor: refer to the three options at the upper right, aside the question mark. So, I don't know which view you are actually referring to; as it's shown to me with "Classic Categories", it would look nice with large images. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 19:18, December 8, 2019 (UTC)


 * Oh I had no idea you can do that! I have "Dynamic Categories" and there little icons are perfect where as the resized would not. Which spell have you already changed so that I can check? --Mortain87 (talk) 20:44, December 8, 2019 (UTC)


 * When I look at "Classic Categories", Black Blade of Disaster is the only one with an "image", all others show text. When I switch to "Category Exhibition" (alphabetically), only two pages initially show images, screenshots, the rest only text again. On page 3, Protection From Petrification (spell) has the icon, though in this view with a bad black line to the right which is caused by a different ratio; would probably need an even larger height than 151px to solve this. I can see what you mean with the images on "Dynamic Categories".
 * Except for some similar black lines in the "Category Exhibition", this all works well with the already originally larger description images for items. And it's also showing an image when you open that directly and look into the bottom section of which pages are using it.
 * Another pro-argument: a tiny icon would only have a rather narrow line in the infobox, and be completely overwhelmed by the game icons above. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 21:04, December 8, 2019 (UTC)


 * I like the "Dynamic Categories" the most because it gives a nice overview of name and picture together. For me it was the default and by resizing the images you can't see the icons properly in this view. So resizing is not an option unfortunately. What about upscaling? Why don't you like it? I mean we could go nuts and use something super sofisticated as deep learning super resolution models such as ESRGAN . How does the game scale the icons? I feel Grease ISCRL6600000 Item icon BG1.png is much smoother than SPWI101C00000.PNG and feel like it has not been just upscaled.


 * PS: here they use this  to upscale images, which is also based on artificial intelligence.


 * PPS: here somebody tested the before mentioned ESRGAN algorithm for Baldur's Gate --Mortain87 (talk) 21:35, December 8, 2019 (UTC)


 * Well, we're a wiki, not a modding community. We work with the original files, and should not edit the copyrighted artwork unless necessary for specific purposes. (I'm also against zoomed in screenshots of creatures due to the blur. I don't know which people prefer the pixelized visuals from the zoomed in view – certainly not me.) Baldur's Gate was programmed for 480p resolutions, and Baldur's Gate II for 600p. Beamdog decided to not upscale graphics, even if they made it possible to use much larger resolutions. So, we have to live with this.


 * What do you want to say with those two icon examples? The SPWI… is the spell icon, PNG extracted from BAM, while the other one has the same size, just with the spell scroll frame and the inventory screen background around it. And we're converting to transparency, because no single background is the same across all games and editions. That's why the store lists look so ugly, with transparent icons, icons on black, icons on stone. And spells will have all three icon versions presented: spell book, quick spell and scroll.


 * As for your point that resized icons aren't an option – the "Dynamic Categories" will not show the icon anymore when a suitable larger image is placed somewhere upon the page. Then they will use that instead.


 * For me as an administrator, it's much more useful to choose the "Classic Categories", as they present their content exactly in the way I need to manage categories.
 * By the way, as you're becoming an adept wikian, you should get used to some technical terms – and don't call categories "lists". ;) (I use that to describe their purpose, though.)
 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 22:15, December 8, 2019 (UTC)


 * My point with the two icons is this: https://imgur.com/a/t8Dz05a the one integrated in the scroll is much smoother. You can see this on the right which is a subtraction result between the two. Do you think that the developers/designer made two different images or does the game engine integrate the one on a scroll image and smooth it out automatically? --Mortain87 (talk) 05:59, December 9, 2019 (UTC)


 * It seems, you'd have to point me to the smooth-pixels, 'cause … I don't see them.
 * I can't tell if the developers used the same image and just placed it on the scroll background, though that clearly would have been the efficient way to create those. It's certainly not the game engine, as there are three different icons for (almost) every spell. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:33, December 9, 2019 (UTC)


 * Hey, I just noticed that icons here are shown in the "Dynamic Categories" even though they are 32x32px. Do you know why it works here and not in Category:Spells? --Mortain87 (talk) 14:14, December 9, 2019 (UTC)


 * Huh? Why shouldn't they – they do everywhere. But as soon as a larger image exists on the page, the one shown in the category will switch to that one. Only if the conditions are met (I guess, 201×151 is needed here, too), the first one with such a size will be used, not the largest one. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 14:20, December 9, 2019 (UTC)


 * Ehm that was the point I started this. See here you can see how it looks like in the "Dynamic Categories" mode. Even though almost every spell has at least some sort of images in their page, many are not being displayed at all and I don't get why. --Mortain87 (talk) 14:25, December 9, 2019 (UTC)

Outdent, and back a step.

I don't have much time right at the moment, but I'm trying to understand you right and will make some assumptions. I haven't checked for 32×32 (usual scroll icon size), but e.g. Animal Summoning III has an image with 53×53, while the icon on Animate Dead (priest) is only 21×23. So, the threshold for this specific category view might be 30 px squared. -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 15:19, December 9, 2019 (UTC)


 * By looking at this picture you can see that many icons are not displayed. Now as for an example you can see that Feeblemind has no icon next to it, even though if you go to the page there is a scroll icon with a resolution of 32²px. Why is that? This confuses me because under the Category:Spells it is not the case. Who chooses the category view and how does it differ from Category:Spells? --Mortain87 (talk) 16:25, December 9, 2019 (UTC)


 * Honestly – I don't know. For example, Agannazar's Scorcher even has a screenshot of 342×257px, yet the category decides to show the small scroll icon. Others have a spell and a scroll icon, and the category shows nothing. Above, I gave you a link to my profile which has some details about this topic. That also includes the link to a blog from Kirkburn that goes deeper into the matter. However, I think I've experienced slightly different behavior even before than what's told, and there might have been technical updates. You can also look into Help:Category.
 * Why both categories handle this differently? Well, the one lists articles which have multiple images on them, while the other only lists pure images.
 * If you're going to experiment with this: it might take up to 24 hours for a category to show things that have been changed on the article. For example, if you change the size of an icon or place a larger image somewhere, you might find this in the category only the next day. You can try to circumvent this by not loading the category from browser cache (open it, then hit ) or add " " at the end of its address. (See Help:Purge.) I've seen cases where this didn't work, though rarely.


 * By the way, I didn't exactly request that revert. ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:17, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * Oh now I get it. Thank you. So basically you can change all these options by contacting Special:Contact . So I wonder what the limit is right now (since it was changed) or how to see the properties of this wiki since it is obvioudly not 130px by 115px as otherwise many images wouldn't show up. I guess it was changed to 50²px. Maybe you as an admin have access to this information or can contact them. And regarding Agannazar's Scorcher it's because since the requirement in size was changed the scroll icon also meets the requirements but it comes before the gallery image (As described: The image shown is usually the first image on each page.). --Mortain87 (talk) 13:11, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * That last part is why I think, the criteria were changed to be 30×30px, not 50. (According to a comment from 2015, it already then was changed to 75×75px.)
 * And no, you cannot change all these options, only the number-of-images limit. (As far as I know.)
 * So, you want me to contact support to learn what the exact values are? Why not simply try and experiment a bit? -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 13:41, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * It can't be 30²px because the scroll icons are 32²px and they are not displayed. I will experiment then even though neither " " nor a null edit did work unfortunately.


 * Another question similar to this topic. What do you think should we do in the following situation. There are two different images for the same icon. One is from the old BG1 and one from the new version but the one from BG1 looks better, which one should we use to be displayed? The one in used at the moment or the better looking? To be more precise: old but nice or new but ugly. --Mortain87 (talk) 13:44, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * Make a test for a spell that has a <30px spell icon and a 32px scroll icon and is showing nothing by re-uploading the spell icon at 31×31px or disabling it temporarily from the IB. Would be an idea, I think.


 * As for which image/icon to use: the item infobox documentation reads "Item description image. First-appearance (game release) version preferred." and "Item inventory icon. If extracted with Near Infinity, use the shadowed version." That "first-appearance" thing is also valid for the icon. Then there's item artwork (not perfect, yet – needs all three icon categories as of now) which I place on item articles I've redone. Started with The One Gift Lost, I think.
 * Same would apply to spells, where almost all spell icons have been changed by the Enhanced Editions.


 * Hey, you're asking me a lot of questions, and it takes me time to answer all of them. All that's related to the item infobox – could you please read that documentation once, to see if your questions are already answered there? ;) -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 14:04, December 10, 2019 (UTC)

Infobox Area
Could you please look over Template:Infobox area when you get a chance? I overhauled the "what to fill it with" section to match the actual template above, but many of the parameters I have no idea how to use. Quite a few seem silly and of extremely limited use. For example I'm not sure how often "worships" would be relevant info that needs to be in an infobox at the side of the page, if people in the area worship Umberlee or whoever, that can be mentioned in the article itself. It isn't especially gameplay-relevant. "Primary functions" and "other functions" feel like they overlap with "type" and other sections, for example if the area is primarily for shopping then that will be taken care of under "services." I guess I would need some examples of how to break down specific areas into type, primary, and other in this way. Not sure what "notable1" is, or what to do with "layout" and "other layout." If "basement" is really just to describe whether the area has a basement? That seems very specific and not broadly applicable to a majority of areas.

I also tried to fill in the description of some fields with what I thought should be listed there, but it's possible I got it wrong. Unclesporky (talk) 17:56, December 8, 2019 (UTC)


 * As already explained to Mortain87, this infobox is one of those I've rarely touched until now. And for several of those fields, I can't tell either how to use them or what they are or were intended for. It may help to look into the infobox's and documentation's page histories ("History" is available in the "Edit" button menu) to find clues. Also, there still may be more parameters available than shown on the documentation, which you could access when editing the infobox itself.


 * I guess, an example could look like this:
 * Type: Building
 * Primary functions: Inn
 * Other: Store
 * Services: Identification
 * Drinks: well, drinks …
 * Rooms: … and rooms


 * Layout … hm … I've used "Floors" to give the number of them. Depending on the article, it could perhaps also be used to link to the floor articles/sections. Same for "Basement". "Other"? Don't know – just the option to tell something else, perhaps. This may also be the case for "Notable" and "Special".


 * Worship … I'd keep it, for now. Suits "Authority" somehow. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:13, December 8, 2019 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I didn't notice any earlier discussion about it. I wonder honestly if there are any area articles at all right now that have every one of these fields filled out as a clue to how to use them. Unclesporky (talk) 15:04, December 9, 2019 (UTC)


 * Happy hunting. ;)
 * 'twasn't an actual "discussion", I only said "[…] These are also the reasons why I (almost) haven't touched the infobox, yet – which could use an overhaul […]" -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 09:52, December 10, 2019 (UTC)

Discouraging behaviour
Hi CompleCCity, I really don't get why you behave like you did here and at this comment section. I know it is a very german thing to do and even though you are definitely a big part of this Wiki I feel like you like to think this is your Wiki. This behaviour is just contraproductive and very demotivating like User:Unclesporky and I already told you before. I guess, you've confused two items here; most of your added/changed info is false??? Seriously? What are you thinking when you write that? Do you really think that I am making you more work than as if I am not contributing at all? Because if this is the case I really don't mind to stop. I mean, it is a lot of time that I am investing in and I do not have as much time as you have. Just let me know if I should continue or stop completely. --Mortain87 (talk) 15:32, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * Oh, wow …


 * I thought, we'd already discussed that comment section, so I don't really understand why you rake it up now.


 * As for the Sun Gem – what do you think I thought when writing it? Exactly what I wrote. I'm an administrator on this wiki – as such it is my duty (as far as you can use such terms for voluntary work on some internet community thing) to check edits about their validity, among other things. What I noticed on first sight when checking that edit was an added name, a different weight and a wrong item type – all of which had been correct before. This outweighed possible improvements of your edit. To double-check these facts took me time, as well. In such cases, I don't go and fix single things that were done wrong by the latest editor – which would cost me even more time, but simply restore the "better", the more correct version from before. If you think, this is discouraging, then this is your problem. Or should my edit summary have been worded more sensible? I think, it's pretty to the point and not insulting or something.


 * So, if you think, this makes me behave as this was my wiki, rather than a community thing (and you're not the first person saying so), then please tell me what would be the better behavior. Or was that sentence directly related to those comments? Then please see above.


 * Indeed, there are times when I think, you're causing more work here for me than it would be without you. Though I didn't want to tell you this openly. I thought, you will learn over time how things should be done, and perhaps in addition how I like things to be done (the former's referencing more general wikiing rules, while the latter … now, is personal and on top; "my" wiki, if you want to say so).
 * There's other work by you that's fine and a real contribution to the wiki.
 * So, I leave it to you what you may take out of this and if you want to take steps, appropriate to your feelings or to my supposed relation to your person. A lost editor is a bad editor – you can only be a good editor if you stay.


 * I'm open to discuss this further. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:10, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * Let me continue with my "discouraging behavior" a bit: I've again undone your two proposals for deletion. As I had hoped, you would understand that we need two versions of those files after I had shown you the template:Item artwork. So they will not be deleted – at least not unless there are even more versions of it, which I haven't checked, now.
 * You shouldn't use "wrongly" in edit summaries when the former edit was "right" at the time it had be done.
 * Also, there's something called "edit war". It's okay to undo an edit that was wrong. It's usually not okay to undo such a revert without explanation or discussion. I let this slip through for you because we "talked" about it in the edit summaries. And again, because I'm here explaining my reasons.
 * However, consider this a warning: edit warring may lead to a block. (As this is a warning, I will link to this on your own talk page.)
 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:24, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * And again, your resoning does not make any sense to me. To be honest I feel like you want to be right or somehow try prove a point or maybe have a reason to block me? I don't know but explain to me how this will serve in template:Item artwork since it's basically this without transparency and this being a screenshot? In The One Gift Lost I don't see any icons with black backgrounds or screenshots? I see original icons taken with maybe NearInfinity of the different versions of Baldur's Gate version. But you know what if you want (which I really get the feeling you do): I give you the permission to block me, so that I won't even be able to come back and waste more time with this. --Mortain87 (talk) 17:01, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * Sad, you'll see it this way. I've explained my stances, and they're not personal. I didn't block you, did I? I told you that such behavior might lead to a block, to simply warn you to not behave like that. I'm not looking for a reason or trying to provoke such. A blocked editor is a bad editor, as well.
 * Regardless of your consequences, I will explain why such images stay: as credits to the original contributor. My policy is to attribute wiki contributions to the person that made them initially. So, as we need two or four versions of many files, I'd rather overwrite the old ones with a better quality image than upping a new file and delete the former. We will need two versions of the icon, and we have two files. Why delete one?


 * I don't need your "permission" to block you, neither will I block you – unless your behavior gives reason. -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 17:20, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * CompleCCity, couldn't you have left him a quick comment and asked him to fix the specific parts of his edit that were errors? "The name seems incorrect and I would consider the item essential, could you explain your reasoning otherwise?" etc. I see in comments sections regularly from over the years that someone said for example "this character's AC is wrong" and you replied "so go change it then, you can edit too." And yet when you have a really active editor who seems to love these games and wants info about them to be correct, you revert their edits, rather than talking to them like you talk to those other users, and trusting them to make the changes.
 * I need to be clear that this isn't about myself; I know I made that scroll icon edit you reverted but that's perfectly fine, as I said in the summary I wasn't sure if it was appropriate or not and I thought your reasoning for changing it back made sense. But I really think especially when it comes to active editors on a less-active wiki, there needs to be some communication. It only becomes an edit war when someone reverts and then the other reverts back, it took both of those people to take part in it. I'm sure he would've changed it if you'd just pointed it out. A revert feels more damaging and significant than editing a couple of lines. He probably would've appreciated it seeing that you corrected the name. Unclesporky (talk) 17:28, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * This is also something to consider:
 * "To double-check these facts took me time, as well. In such cases, I don't go and fix single things that were done wrong by the latest editor – which would cost me even more time, but simply restore the "better", the more correct version from before. If you think, this is discouraging, then this is your problem."


 * If you are looking at the wiki as a whole, with the end goal to become a perfect and accurate resource for this game series...look at it in terms of time spent. Right now there are ~3-6 people making regular contributions. Double checking incorrect facts takes you time, fixing edits correctly takes you time. Reverting an edit takes the least amount of time. But if people are driven away, even if you say it's ultimately their own attitude problem and you are blameless, the fact is the wiki could go from 3-6 to 2-5, or even 1-4. Even if you are saving time by doing quick reverts, maybe doing so is losing out on a lot of time that this person might have spent providing good edits, if they get frustrated and leave. It could save more time in the long run, toward the goal of getting this wiki in a perfect state of accuracy, if we just communicate when there are problems, even if the communication takes a little time now. Unclesporky (talk) 17:39, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * It is exactly as Unclesporky said. It would have not mattered to me at all if you would have changed the things you have noticed being wrong or by letting me know to review since you have found mistakes as you did countesly before (because I am still learning). Reverting a change completely is an entire different thing. This way you are basically saying that the time I invested was worthless. --Mortain87 (talk) 18:37, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * I do agree with the policy about deleting an image vs. overwriting an image though. When you think about it, it's the same as when we edit articles: if the page about The Amazing Oopah has a lot of incorrect info, we don't mark it for deletion, instead we edit the text until it's correct, which leaves a log of what it used to say in case anyone wants to check. Makes sense for images too. But we only know this because we talked about it! Even if it feels silly to re-explain, if this policy was discussed somewhere else a year ago with another user. Us new users didn't know that. Unclesporky (talk) 18:42, December 10, 2019 (UTC)

Somehow impossible to react, as I always run into edit conflicts and would regularly have to update my reply. So here's what I had written before Mortain87's latest comment.

Really, from a factual point of view (copy-pasted histories reduced to the essential, and ordered the other way round):

14:25, December 10, 2019‎ Mortain87 (Updated Infobox) 14:46, December 10, 2019‎ CompleCCity (Undo revision 156776 by Mortain87 (talk) I guess, you've confused two items here; most of your added/changed info is false) 15:25, December 10, 2019‎ Mortain87 (Undo revision 156785 by CompleCCity (talk) What exactly is so wrong? I forgot to change the name but besides that I updated all the things according to NearInfinity) 15:29, December 10, 2019‎ Mortain87 (Corrected crital item) 15:29, December 10, 2019‎ CompleCCity (well, last time there were more errors) 15:30, December 10, 2019‎ CompleCCity (Undo revision 156797 by Mortain87 (talk) it IS critical)

14:27, December 10, 2019‎ Mortain87 (To delete) 14:47, December 10, 2019‎ CompleCCity (Undo revision 156777 by Mortain87 (talk) in use again) 16:58, December 10, 2019‎ Mortain87 (Undo revision 156786 by CompleCCity (talk) Wrongly undone by CompleCCity) 17:14, December 10, 2019‎ CompleCCity (Undo revision 156827 by Mortain87 (talk) this will still be needed; and don't call my edit "wrongly" when it was correct when done!)

14:28, December 10, 2019‎ Mortain87 (Ready to be deleted) 14:48, December 10, 2019‎ CompleCCity (Undo revision 156778 by Mortain87 (talk) in use again) 16:58, December 10, 2019‎ Mortain87 (Undo revision 156787 by CompleCCity (talk)Wrongly undone by CompleCCity) 17:14, December 10, 2019‎ CompleCCity (Undo revision 156828 by Mortain87 (talk) this will still be needed; and don't call my edit "wrongly" when it was correct when done!)

"Rather than talking to them" … have you tracked the talk between Mortain87 and me? Perhaps not – understandably, regarding its length. ;)

I see your points, Unclesporky, and do agree with them – on the one hand.

On the other hand – I'm a human being, myself. The time I spend here, I cannot spend for other things. For my personal life, e.g. As Mortain87 does, I also have to consider what is worth this time, and what may not. Currently, I feel that I indeed spend too much time talking, time that I'd rather like to spend for effective work. This causes sentences like "Hey, you're asking me a lot of questions, and it takes me time to answer all of them. All that's related to the item infobox – could you please read that documentation once, to see if your questions are already answered there?" – which I usually wouldn't say, neither …

Perhaps this specific story is sort of a personal escalation, but if so, on both sides.

I thought, leaving that edit summary would be sufficient to explain my revert, and not another talk page comment necessary instead (which I indeed oftentimes do in similar situations). Perhaps I was wrong with that, and the revert caused the discouraged-feeling of Mortain87. But there were also the edits, the proposals for deletion on the two files. I reverted, which was directly connected to the article revert, and then Mortain reverted as well. Reverted "back", as you state above yourself – which he already did with the article, so this in fact is edit warring. And in addition with that edit summary "Wrongly undone by CompleCCity". At that point of time, I thought, Mortain87 should know that there are some rules on wikis, and that he really started to stress my patience. That's why I told about that – not because I really had a block in mind.

Besides hearing that I treat this wiki as if it was mine, I also hear that it is a gentle wiki. I know of other wikis, where Mortain87 would have left weeks ago, due to their administrators' behavior on such things. Admitted, those are often "dead" communities. And I'm not the person that would like to be part of such a community.

Perhaps I overreacted a bit with that note about a block, but I will not apologize for it. As perhaps I should be (even) more talkative, this also applies to Mortain87 – why didn't he ask for my reasons to revert, rather than reverting back?

I don't know what else to add right now … -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:45, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes I did see those. "Rather than talking to them," meaning it was revert + not very informative comment, instead of a note on talk page or just fixing what was wrong. If you knew that "most of your added info/changed info is false," why didn't you fix the false parts? This is what you tell other users when they point out info is wrong, that if they know it they should fix it. For example, you could have done a minor edit of just fixing the name, and in the summary say "fixed incorrect name, also please take another look at value/weight, I think they're wrong too, don't have time for it myself." Or simply fix all of it. And I know that is effort, but you already recognized that the info was wrong. I think that is most of the way to fixing it already, at least in this specific case.
 * You say "why didn't he ask for my reasons to revert, rather than reverting back?" But what happened was, you reverted while not saying what exactly was wrong, and he reverted while asking his question. Both people took action. Whenever anything is reverted, is it the reverted person's responsibility to go to the reverter's talk page and ask them why? And then in that case, you would end up explaining yourself anyway.
 * Obviously all of this does not apply in all cases. I remember when someone deleted a giant chunk from the canon page and you reverted that. I don't think anyone would argue with that, it was a destructive action instead of a corrective one. You don't have to justify yourself every time. If someone edits the cleric page to just say "poopy butts" you don't need to talk to them nicely about why they decided to make that change. But I think it is a little different when you recognize incorrect info from someone who is trying to be a good contributor. Unclesporky (talk) 19:17, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * Ok let's try to move on because sentences like: ... I will not apologize for it will lead no where. I will apologize for any bad feelings I caused and let's move on. I do really respect your opinion CompleCCity and that is the reason why I constantly ask for your opinion and advice and I also understand I can be a little overwhelming when jumping all over the place. Ok why don't we agree on the following:


 * When a major update is done but not approved, maybe one can start a talk and try to understand what the original plan behind was to begin with, if not already asked or explained in the summary (or if unclear).
 * When a page is being updated (which probably has to be done for almost all pages), such as using the updated infobox template or any other template but a few mistakes slip in one can leave a note to check over again with hints like name and weight are wrong, please check everything again.
 * If a single information has been wrongly changed of course it can be reverted with explanation in the summary.
 * But I am glad that this happened so that we all were able to discuss it openly. When I tried to contact CompleCCity via chat and didn't reach him I was glad. Otherwise I think it would have escalated quickly. --Mortain87 (talk) 20:12, December 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * Still, I will not apologize for doing my work. Let's move on, okay, but I want to note some points.
 * I should have checked this edit more closely before simply reverting it – which does not mean, I wouldn't have done. As one of the first things I noticed was the different name, and as this came along with wrong item details, I indeed thought, Mortain87 had "confused two items". So, regardless the amount of data (read: work) removed by the revert, a revert wasn't the wrong action.
 * Reverting something is not saying "the time [somebody] invested was worthless", it's saying "the time you invested was invested in a wrong way."

"Whenever anything is reverted, is it the reverted person's responsibility to go to the reverter's talk page and ask them why?"

- Unclesporky


 * If no explanation is given by the reverting person themselves, yes.
 * I thought, I had read about the amount of work lost by a revert being one issue, but can't find it anymore. Anyway, each version of a page – before the latest edit, each and every single edit, its state on creation, before the revert – can be found in its history which is accessible via the edit button menu. Each revision can be opened and also be edited – to copy content from it and paste it into the current version.
 * All this discussion was very unnerving and demotivating for me, as well. Though I don't think, chat would have escalated – I'm not the person to escalate (believe it or not).
 * I've created detail(s) for the purposes you're proposing. It will automatically add any page it's used on to the hidden category:Pages in need of a review. I don't know how you use notifications about your edits, but you could "follow" (toolbar at the very bottom) that category to get a notification every time something has been added to it. "Every time" in fact means: only once, until your next visit to the category.
 * I'm not commenting on every detail about how I could have fixed the edit in a better or more efficient way, Unclesporky – please, leave the management of my time to the person whom it belongs to.
 * This does not count as an official agreement to the points you listed directly above, Mortain87. I will keep in mind all your feedback, but I will also continue my work as I see fit.


 * On a side note: this soon will be archived, as all of our talk pages will. In preparation for the unified platform that will be launched the new year, we move from user talks to message walls, and from forums to discussions. A community message will follow.


 * -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 11:59, December 11, 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't wish to make anyone feel bad about anything, I assume we're all adults here and ultimately this is just a simple wiki. It can be meaningful to some people but no one should lose their heads over it or have excessively hurt feelings.


 * But I did want to call attention to these two points:

"Reverting something is not saying "the time [somebody] invested was worthless", it's saying "the time you invested was invested in a wrong way.""

- CompleCCity

"Please, leave the management of my time to the person whom it belongs to.""

- CompleCCity


 * By your own statement, reverting an edit is a judgement on the value of how someone else invested their time. I can agree to leave the management of your time to yourself, each of us spend our time in the ways we see fit. But it does feel slightly contradictory to say, "via this revert I will imply that you spent your time poorly, but do not attempt to judge the way I spend my time."


 * I am not trying to say that no one should ever revert a page, I would not argue that at all. I am saying there should hopefully be some consistency here. If we are to respect one person's time, then we should respect everyone's time and the amount of effort they are putting in, if they are acting in good faith.


 * Again I hope this is not distressing to read or causing any problems for anyone. Hopefully we can get back to correcting typos, adding to short descriptions, and uploading clean transparent images that look professional. :) Unclesporky (talk) 12:43, December 11, 2019 (UTC)